More Favorites: Reflections on Jazz in the 1980s

[JSngry]

25 minutes ago, felser said:

I actually like Norman Connors albums (some a lot more than others), and Hyman has always been on my list as a subject for further research.  But I like McCoy Tyner records a lot more. 

A cursory look at Discogs suggests (to me), that McCoy went through the 1980s without making a really impactful record, so maybe he had some shit going on that distracted him, or he had misguided management or something, who knows?

But after having revisited it today, I can say that I now have two opinions about Looking Out:

1. Phyllis Hyman was never consistently produced to the advantage that she was here. Explore her you definity should, but be prepared for a lot of, shall we say, frustration and missed opportunities. When there are triumphs, they are magnificent. But...

2. As a McCoy Tyner record, this sounds like a surrender with no resistance. None whatsoever. That was painful then, and it's painful now.

[felser]

6 hours ago, mjazzg said:

I'm prepared to be in the minority but that top track is really good even if it does sound more like it's from a Hyman than Tyner album. Makes me want to hear the rest of the album.

Just gave them all a listen.  I agree that "In Search of My Heart" is excellent.  The rest of the cuts, I can live without.  Not offensive in any way, just not compelling.

[JSngry]

The horn/string arrangement on "In Search Of My Heart" (which is knocking me out today, actually), is credited to Jerry Hey & Bill Reichenbach which is one more time why I think that I should have liked Seawind more than I did.

It kind of reminds me of Charles Stepney. Always good, that is.

[felser]

On 2/20/2022 at 9:58 PM, JSngry said:

The horn/string arrangement on "In Search Of My Heart" (which is knocking me out today, actually), is credited to Jerry Hey & Bill Reichenbach which is one more time why I think that I should have liked Seawind more than I did.

It kind of reminds me of Charles Stepney. Always good, that is.

Love Stepney, especially his work on those Terry Callier Cadet albums.  I also never really got into Seawind, despite trying hard a few times.

[JSngry]

Seawind was one of those bands that you were "supposed" to like, never a good predictor of actually liking it for me...

[Milestones]

It is true that McCoy's work in the decade (80s) was rather poor.  He started to come out of it late in the decade with Revelations (solo) and Uptown/Downtown (big band), but better records in nearly every format would soon follow.  I find that the early 90s is the most consistent and finest period in his long career.

[JSngry]

I would not use the term "rather poor", but I will use the phrase "not impactful".

He did a few later records on Blue Note that were quite impactful, imo. And the big band record(s?), same there.

I saw him live with an all-star group with Freddie Hubbard ca 1982 and he played quite well, but the highlight was his solo piece, might nve been "In A Sentimental Mood". He seemed...unleased or something by being able to play just by himself.

Ups and downs, right?

[HutchFan]

Hmm...   Reading some of the responses to McCoy's output in the 80s, I feel like I should stick up for him.  He may not have made any mind-blowing records during the decade, but I think he made some very strong records. 

Consider... along with my pick, La Leyenda de la Hora, McCoy released these albums during the 1980s:
- 13th House (Milestone, 1981)
- Dimensions (Elektra Musician, 1984)
- Just Feelin' (Palo Alto, 1985)
- Bon Voyage (Timeless, 1987)
- Revelations (Blue Note, 1988)
- Uptown/Downtown (Milestone, 1988)
- Things Ain't What They Used to Be (Blue Note, 1989)

From my perspective, every single one of these albums is at least "solid" -- and several of them are much better than that.

I'm just sayin'!

 

[JSngry]

I saw the Dimensions band live and they were SO much better than the record!

[HutchFan]

20 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I would not use the term "rather poor", but I will use the phrase "not impactful".

Many of the artists that I love have had little impact on jazz.  They've never been influential.  Or their influence was fleeting.

That doesn't mean that their art wasn't important -- to me, at least! 

 

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I saw the Dimensions band live and they were SO much better than the record!

Well, that's nearly ALWAYS true.  That's just what jazz is.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by HutchFan

[soulpope]

2 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

- Just Feelin' (Palo Alto, 1985

The first and probably the strongest Trio outing with bassist Avery Sharpe and drummer Louis Hayes .... not widely known - probably due to label/distribution ....

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, HutchFan said:

Well, that's nearly ALWAYS true.  That's just what jazz is.

Do tell, please.

[HutchFan]

7 minutes ago, soulpope said:

The first and probably the strongest Trio outing with bassist Avery Sharpe and drummer Louis Hayes .... not widely known - probably due to label/distribution ....

I agree.  I kept going back-and-forth between La Leyenda and Just Feelin' for my survey selection.

 

6 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Do tell, please.

You know what I mean, Jim.  Live jazz is almost always more interesting than anything that we hear on record.

Live jazz is in real-time.  It's the difference between watching dancers in-person and watching them on a video.  Not the same thing.  Moving through time in-the-NOW with them.  Or watching after the fact.  Jazz is just the same.

Don't get me wrong: I LOVE records.  Because it's as close as I'm ever going to get to so many wonderful artists. 

But I'd pay a STEEP price to go back in time and see them perform live.  Because there's something essential about being there.

That's all I meant.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

Yeah, but "the magic" is as much a matter of spirit as of place. and often playing a dance gig is something you can relax and get lazy on, whereas if there's amike, you get that focus on and jusices rlling.

Sometimes, yeah. and sometimes not. But as it pertains to McCoy specifically - what would you expect a live gig of The Real McCoy band to sound like? What if Joe and Elvin were, uh, distracted? That was not a working band, so, no guarantees.

For that matter, Togetherness - that's a bunch of season players who knew how to make a good-great record sitting behind baffles with headphones on and maybe or maybe not making eye contact. That same badn goes on stage at a festival or some such...good luck. Maybe yes, maybe know.

It's just not that simple, especially since what constitutes a live gig has been essentially transformed over the last half-century. And a LOT of players today are more comfortable "making a statement" in the privacy of a studio than they are in the too-often vile conditions of a live date.

[mhatta]

My honest opinion is, I think McCoy Tyner made some good records in the 80s while he made some great records in the 60/70s.  I should also mention that he was really great when I saw him in person in Tokyo in the late 90/early 00s.

BTW, McCoy's 80s albums produced by Japanese labels tend to be overlooked.  Love & Peace (1982) is one of them, which records McCoy's reunion with Elvin & Richard Davis (and Pharoah Sanders & Jean-Paul Bourelly).  Double Trios (1986) is also an interesting outing -- one trio is Avery Sharpe & Louis Hayes, another is Marcus Miller & Jeff "Tain" Watts.  Might sound a bit dated, but it is worth listening to "Sudan".

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by mhatta

[JSngry]

There's enough bootlegs of "professional" playing that is essentially players "going through the motions" (albeit very masterful motions) that have left me disbelieving pretty much entirely the assumption that "live is always better". Sometimes yes, sometimes no, and the sole determining factor being live vs studio just does not hold up to an objective analysis, imo, especially post 1970-ish. Things changed, a lot of things changed.

More likely to be a determining factor is who the music is being made for and to whom it is being played. Hell, you can have a more intelligent and appreciative audience in a studio that you can in a club, and definitely in a concert. You can have. Not always, but you can.

A good reason to get high is to block off all the idiocy that comes with playing live in the wrong places for the wrong peoples. That's a damn good reason, actually.

[Jim Duckworth]

On 1/11/2022 at 1:31 AM, Gheorghe said:

And at one point he shouted to the audience "What do you want to hear" and one guy shouted back "Salt Peanuts", and Sonny made that grimasse and played something else (I think "They can´t take it away from me"). 

I ran into Mr. Stitt at the Homewood library in Pittsburgh.  Typically there would be lessons given on Saturday, but nearly everyone was at some event leaving me and an assortment of neighborhood folks on hand. In walks (Mr.) Stitt alto in hand asking what we want to hear.  "Cherokee!" was the near universal reply.  Followed by my lone addendum "Koko."  He turned the bell of his horn towards me and started playing Koko. It was amazing-I will remember that as long as I live.

[Milestones]

Tyner from 1991 alone!

• Soliloquy (solo)
• Remembering John (trio) 
• 44th Street Suite w. (Blythe and Murray)
• The Turning Point (his best big band record)

 

 

[felser]

1 hour ago, mhatta said:

My honest opinion is, I think McCoy Tyner made some good records in the 80s while he made some great records in the 60/70s.  

 

+1

[JSngry]

Extra kudos for The Turning Point here as well. "Passion Dance" is a most worthy companion to the original.

It's always nice when somebody stops making...ok, "great" records and then gets back in the groove. "Reurgance" or whatever you want to call it. For me, it renews my faith.

1 hour ago, Jim Duckworth said:

I ran into Mr. Stitt at the Homewood library in Pittsburgh.  Typically there would be lessons given on Saturday, but nearly everyone was at some event leaving me and an assortment of neighborhood folks on hand. In walks (Mr.) Stitt alto in hand asking what we want to hear.  "Cherokee!" was the near universal reply.  Followed by my lone addendum "Koko."  He turned the bell of his horn towards me and started playing Koko. It was amazing-I will remember that as long as I live.

I've told the story before, but...Sonny Stitt was playing a south Dallas cocktail lounge as a single, and he had a pretty adept local rhtym section. Stitt was in "cruising" mode, not a bad thing, really. so midway through the night, the bass player says, "hey Sonny, want to play something up?"

Oh my, that was the wrong thing to do, because Still felt that he was being challenged, so he shot a look, and said, ok, Cherokee in E, gave four bets at some absurd temp, and that was that.

Those were different people and different times, all the way and on all sides.

 

[kh1958]

2 hours ago, HutchFan said:

Hmm...   Reading some of the responses to McCoy's output in the 80s, I feel like I should stick up for him.  He may not have made any mind-blowing records during the decade, but I think he made some very strong records. 

Consider... along with my pick, La Leyenda de la Hora, McCoy released these albums during the 1980s:
- 13th House (Milestone, 1981)
- Dimensions (Elektra Musician, 1984)
- Just Feelin' (Palo Alto, 1985)
- Bon Voyage (Timeless, 1987)
- Revelations (Blue Note, 1988)
- Uptown/Downtown (Milestone, 1988)
- Things Ain't What They Used to Be (Blue Note, 1989)

From my perspective, every single one of these albums is at least "solid" -- and several of them are much better than that.

I'm just sayin'!

 

I'm with you.

[Milestones]

Good albums for sure, but I personally don't find any of these "go-to" Tyner records.

 

 

 

[JSngry]

Let's put it this way - in a Devil-Ruled World - how many of those 80s albums would it take to get you to allow The Real McCoy to be erased from time, like, it never happened?

And/or - how many of those 80s records would you sacrifice to ensure that it would NEVER disappear, not for all time?

An absurd precept to be sure, but you know, just because it's all good doesn't mean that all good is equal. Because, really, if it's all good then it's all the same and if it's all the same, why should anybody give a shit?

[Milestones]

There is good and there is great, but then too it's all in the ear of the behearer.

 

 

[Gheorghe]

15 hours ago, Jim Duckworth said:

I ran into Mr. Stitt at the Homewood library in Pittsburgh.  Typically there would be lessons given on Saturday, but nearly everyone was at some event leaving me and an assortment of neighborhood folks on hand. In walks (Mr.) Stitt alto in hand asking what we want to hear.  "Cherokee!" was the near universal reply.  Followed by my lone addendum "Koko."  He turned the bell of his horn towards me and started playing Koko. It was amazing-I will remember that as long as I live.

Well this must have been better times. I caught a week night , booze is the answer...., when he left he even would have forgot his horn, we had to yell at him to take his horn...