More Favorites: Reflections on Jazz in the 1980s

[Dub Modal]

34 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Which Mack Av would you start with?

I listened to both Legacy and In My Time today and enjoyed both. I can't really give a definitive answer there as - to me anyway - they're both great big band albums. I also like State Street Sweet, which is on a different label and from the mid-90s. I don't think you can go wrong but others may have differing opinions. 

[Rabshakeh]

Thanks

[JSngry]

The Orchestra of the 80s records are really strong as well.

[HutchFan]

Here are my entries for this week on MORE FAVORITES: Reflections on Jazz in the 1980s:

 - Max Roach - Chattahoochee Red (Columbia, 1981)
 - McCoy Tyner - La Leyenda de la Hora (The Legend of the Hour) (Columbia/Koch, 1981)
 - New York Jazz Quartet - Oasis (Enja, 1981)

 

The much-overlooked Chattahoochee Red is tremendous.  PRIME Max. ... And "Odean Pope is a bad, bad man."

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by HutchFan

[felser]

2 hours ago, HutchFan said:

 

The much-overlooked Chattahoochee Red is tremendous.  PRIME Max. ... And "Odean Pope is a bad, bad man."

 

Agreed.  Would be less overlooked if someone would issue it on CD.  The version of "It's Time" on that is moving.  Roach always brought out the best in Pope.

 

[Gheorghe]

On 13.2.2022 at 9:51 PM, HutchFan said:

Here are my entries for this week on MORE FAVORITES: Reflections on Jazz in the 1980s:

 - Max Roach - Chattahoochee Red (Columbia, 1981)
 - McCoy Tyner - La Leyenda de la Hora (The Legend of the Hour) (Columbia/Koch, 1981)
 - New York Jazz Quartet - Oasis (Enja, 1981)

 

The much-overlooked Chattahoochee Red is tremendous.  PRIME Max. ... And "Odean Pope is a bad, bad man."

 

I remember the Max Roach of the late 70´s - early 80´s very well. 

After hearing them with Billy Harper and Reggie Workman, after first hearing them with Odeon Pope and Calvin Hill , I was a bit disapointed. Reggie Workman hat a warmer sound on the bass, and I had to get used to the stranger tenor sound of Pope, sounding more like a bassoon. 

I think Chattahoochee was not very much time around....those CBS records quickly run OOP. Then there was much recordings for Soul Note. 

And then there was the double quartet with strings....

McCoy Tyner on Columbia ? Didn´t know that. All the Tyners were on Milestone. During that time there was Horizon the latest one.

New York Jazz Quartet sounds good as a name of a group, but who was it ? 

[HutchFan]

4 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

New York Jazz Quartet sounds good as a name of a group, but who was it ? 

When they made Oasis, the New York Jazz Quartet consisted of Frank Wess, Roland Hanna, George Mraz, and Ben Riley. 

A terrific band!  

 

[JSngry]

4 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

McCoy Tyner on Columbia ?

Neither really excelled, imo. But the second one, Looking Out, was an abomination. It wasn't that "those kind of records" weren't being made elsewhere (or that I minded them), it's just....McCoy Tyner making THAT kind of record was like a punch to the gut.

otoh, he produced it himself (or so it says), so maybe he wanted to try it to see how it went. I guess you can't fault a man for trying?

Fortunately, though, whatever it was, it was a one-off. and it was also MyCoy's final record for Columbia. No more Norman Connors-esque records out of McCoy Tyner.

I was like, "looking out"? HE'S TRYING TO WARN US!!!!

[Dub Modal]

34 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

When they made Oasis, the New York Jazz Quartet consisted of Frank Wess, Roland Hanna, George Mraz, and Ben Riley. 

A terrific band!  

 

The two songs written by Wess are my favorites on that album. On last year's BFT I included Don't Come, Don't Call and the song received positive feedback. There's some excellent playing by everyone on that record. 

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Neither really excelled, imo.

I've never heard Looking Out.  Sounds like I'm not missing out on anything.

But, obviously, I disagree re: La Leyenda de la Hora.  When I listen to it, I hear something similar to Sama Layuca.  It's a more lyrical version of McCoy.  (Not coincidentally, Bobby Hutcherson is also present on both of those records.)

I like La Leyenda and Sama Layuca for the same reason that I like Horizon.  They're less relentless than his classic Milestone albums like Sahara and Enlightenment.  There is some ebb-and-flow.  It's not ALWAYS pedal-to-the-metal.

That's my preference.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

If i went back and revisited it, it might strike me better. At the time, if seemed just  a little fluffy. I was getting them one after the other, remember and the last Milestones were becoming, cumulatively, a bit redundant. so a change in and of itself was not unwelcome. But that one, again, to me at that time, seemed a little too far "pulled back".

But hey, you NEED to hear Looking Out, if for no other reason than to see that having heroes on an unconditional basis is a sucker;s game. It's something that every mature adult understands, but doesn't always get hit in the face with. This one will hit you in the face and sting forever.

Then again, you'll be coming to it from a retro viewpoint, so it might just be one of those, "eh, that sucked, NEXT" things..

[HutchFan]

5 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

After hearing them with Billy Harper and Reggie Workman, after first hearing them with Odeon Pope and Calvin Hill , I was a bit disapointed. Reggie Workman hat a warmer sound on the bass, and I had to get used to the stranger tenor sound of Pope, sounding more like a bassoon. 

I think Chattahoochee was not very much time around....those CBS records quickly run OOP. Then there was much recordings for Soul Note. 

I guess I'm in the minority, but I like Max's Quartet with Odean Pope and Calvin Hill just as much as the Harper/Workman band.

Give this a listen:

Again, I wasn't there in "real time."  I'm too young -- so my only window on this time is via the records.  And I think THAT ^ is amazing. 

 

[JSngry]

Max didn't make the type of records with Odean that he did with Billy. Why that was, I don't know.

[HutchFan]

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

If i went back and revisited it, it might strike me better. At the time, if seemed just  a little fluffy. I was getting them one after the other, remember and the last Milestones were becoming, cumulatively, a bit redundant. so a change in and of itself was not unwelcome. But that one, again, to me at that time, seemed a little too far "pulled back".

But hey, you NEED to hear Looking Out, if for no other reason than to see that having heroes on an unconditional basis is a sucker;s game. It's something that every mature adult understands, but doesn't always get hit in the face with. This one will hit you in the face and sting forever.

Then again, you'll be coming to it from a retro viewpoint, so it might just be one of those, "eh, that sucked, NEXT" things..

Good point on the fallibility of us all -- even our heroes.  Definitely.

But also: Being there to hear all those records as they were released gave you a certain perspective on them.  Just like me approaching them all -- as a set that happened in the past -- gives me another.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by HutchFan

[Mark Stryker]

On 2/7/2022 at 5:22 PM, Dub Modal said:

I listened to both Legacy and In My Time today and enjoyed both. I can't really give a definitive answer there as - to me anyway - they're both great big band albums. I also like State Street Sweet, which is on a different label and from the mid-90s. I don't think you can go wrong but others may have differing opinions. 

In my chapter about Wilson in "Jazz from Detroit," I single out "In My Time" as the best of the Mack Avenue recordings. And pace Jim in another comment, all three of the  Orchestra of the 80s records are worthwhile, but for me "Lomelin" from 1981 on Discovery is the pick of the litter. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[mjazzg]

58 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

I like La Leyenda and Sama Layuca for the same reason that I like Horizon.  They're less relentless than his classic Milestone albums like Sahara and Enlightenment.  There is some ebb-and-flow.  It's not ALWAYS pedal-to-the-metal.

That's my preference.

Mine too, for the same reason

[Gheorghe]

15 hours ago, mjazzg said:

Mine too, for the same reason

another one I really like is "4 Quartets" , especially those with Hub, Hutch and Athur Blythe. The set with Abercrombie is more difficult for me to listen and the electric mandoline sounds a bit strange.

16 hours ago, HutchFan said:

I guess I'm in the minority, but I like Max's Quartet with Odean Pope and Calvin Hill just as much as the Harper/Workman band.

Give this a listen:

Again, I wasn't there in "real time."  I'm too young -- so my only window on this time is via the records.  And I think THAT ^ is amazing. 

 

Thanks for sharing. Really great. And I see the back cover with the set list. Really great. Round Midnight: When I saw the Bridgewater-Harper-Workman Unit in the late 70´s one of the highlits of a very very strong version of Round Midnight. And the day before Art Farmer played at the Club Jazzland and Max Roach came to visit, but didn´t sit in, sure for contractual reasons. And on the next day, when Max played at "Kongresshaus", Farmer was in the audience and Max greeted him. Wonderful time, when Musicians met each other like this. 

[kh1958]

On 2/18/2022 at 8:23 AM, JSngry said:

Neither really excelled, imo. But the second one, Looking Out, was an abomination. It wasn't that "those kind of records" weren't being made elsewhere (or that I minded them), it's just....McCoy Tyner making THAT kind of record was like a punch to the gut.

otoh, he produced it himself (or so it says), so maybe he wanted to try it to see how it went. I guess you can't fault a man for trying?

Fortunately, though, whatever it was, it was a one-off. and it was also MyCoy's final record for Columbia. No more Norman Connors-esque records out of McCoy Tyner.

I was like, "looking out"? HE'S TRYING TO WARN US!!!!

That may be the one McCoy Tyner album I don't have. But, he used to play Señor Carlos from that album live a lot with his quintet (John Blake/Gary Bartz/John Lee/Wilby Fletcher) and trio (Avery Sharpe and Louis Hayes or Aaron Scott), and it was always one of the highlights of the set. I can still hear his voice introducing the song "written for my good friend Carlos Santana".

Edited February 19, 2022 by kh1958

[JSngry]

"Senor Carlos"...that record came out when I was living in Albuquerque, and soon became a jam session favorite!

On its own, ok. And maybe that albums is going to be less wrteched in 2022 than it was in 1981 or whenever it was. But maybe not? I would never say to not give it a shot to make up your own mind. I'm just saying that at the time, it really felt like, oh god, if McCoy Tyner has become a whore, then there is no virtue left in the world.

And really, there isn't, not really. But that's got nothing to do with McCoy Tyner, then or now.

[felser]

That's the only Tyner-led album I'm aware of that I have not bought (though the are others from the 80's on I could live without at this point).  I have never heard it, should probably check out youtube.  Have never seen the CD for under about $10-12, and there's always something else I'd rather have for that amount.

[JSngry]

On a Norman Connors (or even/especially a Phyllis Hyman record), that would be fine (enough). But on a McCoy Tyner record, that just did not - and does not - uh....resonate with me. It just made it seem that McCoy was just trying to be a pop artist all along.

Actually, hearing it now, I kinda like it. But not at all as a McCoy Tyner record. More as a Phyllis Hyman record. Is that fair? Does it have to be? This is Phyllis Hyman's wheelhouse, and she is superb. But McCoy Tyner?.

If I was coming to this for the first time in 2022...my reaction might well be different, now that everybody's dead, hey, it is what it is and it was what it was. But when you don't know where McCoy Tyner is going and THIS happens...

Yes, they're both dead now. Proceed accordingly.

And relish THIS!

 

[mjazzg]

I'm prepared to be in the minority but that top track is really good even if it does sound more like it's from a Hyman than Tyner album. Makes me want to hear the rest of the album.

[JSngry]

16 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

I'm prepared to be in the minority but that top track is really good even if it does sound more like it's from a Hyman than Tyner album. Makes me want to hear the rest of the album.

You're not wrong, but...jesus, how can I explain the revulsion that came from being "told" that THIS was McCoy Tyner, the same McCoy Tyner that used to be a part of a guiding force of damn near primal impact?

Also, the very early 1980s...more than "just" music was in play. This record was like, oh, ok, next year Robin Leech interviews McCoy Tyner...

[JSngry]

McCoy could have had a career writing game show themes:

 

Upon revisiting, Looking Out is a very good Phyllis Hyman record!

 

[felser]

I actually like Norman Connors albums (some a lot more than others), and Hyman has always been on my list as a subject for further research.  But I like McCoy Tyner records a lot more.  Will check out the tracks above, thanks.