barnaba.siegel Posted December 11, 2022 Report Share Posted December 11, 2022 As we all now, market is full of pirate recordings these days, so it's hard sometimes to distinguish one from another. Not to mention there are probably some levels of bootleg companies - from Dimeadozen thievies to some more sophisticated labels that seem like they're having some purpose, goals, aesthetics. So what do you think of SleepiNight Records, "Independent jazz label owned by Gary Gillies and Sean Gillies" (to quote Discogs), who released 3 Miles Davis CD's - Lost Quintet, Lost Septet and Lost Concert? A bootleg or not? https://www.discogs.com/label/245236-Sleepy-Night-Records Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted December 11, 2022 Report Share Posted December 11, 2022 My two cents which really amounts to not more than a guess: no, these are not official releases, they are essentially bootlegs. The interesting thing is that discogs.com which in general does not allow for the sale of bootlegs on the site DOES allow sales listings for this label, though at the same time they indicate in the description "unofficial release." Confusing, but it is hard to conclude these are authorized releases as there are no indication of licensing or approval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted December 11, 2022 Report Share Posted December 11, 2022 37 minutes ago, jazzbo said: My two cents which really amounts to not more than a guess: no, these are not official releases, they are essentially bootlegs. The interesting thing is that discogs.com which in general does not allow for the sale of bootlegs on the site DOES allow sales listings for this label, though at the same time they indicate in the description "unofficial release." Confusing, but it is hard to conclude these are authorized releases as there are no indication of licensing or approval. I do see this for the Miles Davis on Discogs: This release has been blocked from sale in the marketplace. It is not permitted to sell this item on Discogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted December 11, 2022 Report Share Posted December 11, 2022 14 minutes ago, felser said: I do see this for the Miles Davis on Discogs: This release has been blocked from sale in the marketplace. It is not permitted to sell this item on Discogs. The individual pages for these items do have copies listed for sale! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 12, 2022 Report Share Posted December 12, 2022 As I understand it, this label is possibly not a hardcore bootleg label. They seemingly lease the material from the legitimate owners - who happen to be radio stations/companies. Releases were signed before the broadcasts, so that's their loophole/justification/legality. They definitely have better quality sound than actual bootleg versions of the same materials that I've heard. Bottom line, I think you can have a clear-ish conscience about them, but I would in no way lead with it as supporting evidence to convince god that you played straight all the time in your record buying habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted December 12, 2022 Report Share Posted December 12, 2022 I have some Miles live bootlegs I think. The first might have been the italian Kings of Jazz record of Miles at Birdland 1951 with Rolliins and J.J, and also from that Label a "Miles Davis-Stan Getz" also from Birdland 1950, and years later on another italian label "The Last Bop Session" also from 1950 at Birdland, from the same date as the last Bird-Bud-Fats live at Birdland..... From the "Lost Quintet" I think I have one Bootleg "At the Blue Coronet" from around the time of "Silent Way" , with Chick, Wayne, Dave Holland, Jack De Johnette. And a Bootleg from Vienna 1973 at Stadthalle, but this was just for re-listenig since it was an event back then in my schooldays in my town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnaba.siegel Posted December 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2022 (edited) On 12/11/2022 at 11:53 PM, jazzbo said: My two cents which really amounts to not more than a guess: no, these are not official releases, they are essentially bootlegs. The interesting thing is that discogs.com which in general does not allow for the sale of bootlegs on the site DOES allow sales listings for this label, though at the same time they indicate in the description "unofficial release." Confusing, but it is hard to conclude these are authorized releases as there are no indication of licensing or approval. The thing is simple. No label can be deemed as a bootleg in general, so that any new entry will be marked as Unofficial. But a single release could be. So to kick anything out of the regular discography from Discogs, move it to Unofficial Releases column and block sales on Discogs, you need to simply edit certain release and check the "Unofficial release" box. From time to time I'm doing it, not in the obsessive way, but when I check if anything interesting was released and cross with some cheap sh*t, it goes straight to the "Unofficials". Thankfuly rarely anybody reverse it (but technically it's just few clicks). But recently I've got some change of heart and lost confidence, because of those "loophole/justification/legality" @JSngrymentioned. This music legal stuff could be crazy. I had a chance to interview John McLaughlin a few years ago and asked him about years with Graham Bond and then-recent 4CD release "Wade In The Water" with some of the earliest McLaughlins' recordings. I thought it would be a pleasant talk and would trigger some fond memories with general gratitude that Repertoire Records released this rare and old music - but John went instantly ballistic that he don't know anything about this box and they didn't pay him! Should they? Are Repertoire guys and gals acting on the edge of grey market? Quote Bottom line, I think you can have a clear-ish conscience about them, but I would in no way lead with it as supporting evidence to convince god that you played straight all the time in your record buying habits. Thanks for your answer. Thankfully I'm waaay behind the episode, when I was buying everything that have printed cover and pressed CD, so I was asking more like "is there a chance it's legal" (especially label doesn't look that random, we even know names of its founders) more than seeking absolution 😀. I'll pass and wait . On 12/12/2022 at 8:16 AM, Gheorghe said: I have some Miles live bootlegs I think. The first might have been the italian Kings of Jazz record of Miles at Birdland 1951 with Rolliins and J.J, and also from that Label a "Miles Davis-Stan Getz" also from Birdland 1950, and years later on another italian label "The Last Bop Session" also from 1950 at Birdland, from the same date as the last Bird-Bud-Fats live at Birdland..... From the "Lost Quintet" I think I have one Bootleg "At the Blue Coronet" from around the time of "Silent Way" , with Chick, Wayne, Dave Holland, Jack De Johnette. And a Bootleg from Vienna 1973 at Stadthalle, but this was just for re-listenig since it was an event back then in my schooldays in my town. I have 3 Miles' boots, bought them in the late 2000s and I was very happy about them. Still am. There is a 1969 lost quintet album from the autumn European tour, an 1973 Olympia concert and double Belgrad 1971/1973 gigs. All this music from that period was virtually inaccessible. Plus some DVD's, I guess all of them could be from this grey market area. I was thinking a lot about "Blue Coronet", so important recording for this electric period transistion! Eventually I got MP3, but it's great somebody unearthed those tracks. Edited December 13, 2022 by barnaba.siegel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted December 12, 2022 Report Share Posted December 12, 2022 33 minutes ago, barnaba.siegel said: I was thinking a lot about "Blue Coronet", so important recording for this electric period transistion! Eventually I got MP3, but it's great somebody unearthed those tracks. What's "Blue Coronet"? A Miles bootleg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted December 12, 2022 Report Share Posted December 12, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, medjuck said: What's "Blue Coronet"? A Miles bootleg? Yes. https://www.discogs.com/release/2814035-Miles-Davis-Quintet-Complete-Live-At-The-Blue-Coronet-1969 Like the Sleepy Nights mentioned here I think this too is a bona fide bootleg, not a "gray market" release. Edited December 12, 2022 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted December 12, 2022 Report Share Posted December 12, 2022 How is the sound on that Domino Blue Coronet release? I have some MP3s from somewhere that are in such terrible sound to be practically unlistenable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted December 12, 2022 Report Share Posted December 12, 2022 3 hours ago, jazzbo said: Yes. https://www.discogs.com/release/2814035-Miles-Davis-Quintet-Complete-Live-At-The-Blue-Coronet-1969 Like the Sleepy Nights mentioned here I think this too is a bona fide bootleg, not a "gray market" release. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted December 13, 2022 Report Share Posted December 13, 2022 9 hours ago, John L said: How is the sound on that Domino Blue Coronet release? I have some MP3s from somewhere that are in such terrible sound to be practically unlistenable. Well the sound is "so so". I must admit I have not listened to it lately, lack of time, but in my case I was at least pleased to hear the drums really loud. The electric piano maybe is too "übersteuert" don´t know how you say in English. About Chick Corea with Miles, I like it a bit more controlled, like on "Silent Way". There are too many atonal outbursts for long solos, I prefer that atonality more when I listen to Cecil Taylor, or at least on acoustic. The Fender is more a "funky" instrument, or for a bit more "laid back" straight ahead stuff, but it sounds funny if you play "free" on it. The music on it still has a lot of straight ahead swing, I think one tune from Bitches Brew was on it, I think "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down" is on it, others are the old "Milestones" or "NO Blues" stuff like that. I´d listen to it again just those days, but now I have to play myself and don´t have so much time . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted December 13, 2022 Report Share Posted December 13, 2022 5 hours ago, Gheorghe said: Well the sound is "so so". I must admit I have not listened to it lately, lack of time, but in my case I was at least pleased to hear the drums really loud. The electric piano maybe is too "übersteuert" don´t know how you say in English. About Chick Corea with Miles, I like it a bit more controlled, like on "Silent Way". There are too many atonal outbursts for long solos, I prefer that atonality more when I listen to Cecil Taylor, or at least on acoustic. The Fender is more a "funky" instrument, or for a bit more "laid back" straight ahead stuff, but it sounds funny if you play "free" on it. The music on it still has a lot of straight ahead swing, I think one tune from Bitches Brew was on it, I think "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down" is on it, others are the old "Milestones" or "NO Blues" stuff like that. I´d listen to it again just those days, but now I have to play myself and don´t have so much time . Thanks, Gheorghe. In fact, I found it on Spotify and listened to it. The sound is not great but certainly better than the old MP3s that I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted December 16, 2022 Report Share Posted December 16, 2022 On 12/12/2022 at 11:58 AM, medjuck said: What's "Blue Coronet"? A Miles bootleg? There are two separate ~45 minute recordings of Miles and the Lost Quintet from the Blue Coronet, probably from late June 1969. The music is outstanding and is noteworthy for one of the earliest recordings of “Miles Runs the Voodoo Down”. Most of the repertoire is from the 1965-68 quintet. The performances are free wheeling, but not as radical as the October/November ones from Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted December 16, 2022 Report Share Posted December 16, 2022 On 12/13/2022 at 4:59 AM, John L said: Thanks, Gheorghe. In fact, I found it on Spotify and listened to it. The sound is not great but certainly better than the old MP3s that I have. How (Where) did you find it on Spotify? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted December 16, 2022 Report Share Posted December 16, 2022 10 hours ago, medjuck said: How (Where) did you find it on Spotify? Sorry. I guess that it was youtube. Not hard to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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