Gary Smulyan's "Saxophone Mosaic" (Criss Cross)

[Larry Kart]

Wirth Rich Perry, Ralph LaLama, Dick Oatts, Billy Drewes., Scott Robinson, Mike LaDonne, Dennis Irwin, Kenny Washington. Bob Belden arrangements. Smulyan gets most of the solo space, but there’s  some terrific spots from Rich and Ralph.

[BillF]

👍 Yes, it's a good one.

[Dan Gould]

I could have sworn that Larry had panned Smulyan as a Brignola (or was it Pepper Adams) clone?

[sonnymax]

49 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

I could have sworn that Larry had panned Smulyan as a Brignola (or was it Pepper Adams) clone?

Accusation, or question?

[Chuck Nessa]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

I could have sworn that Larry had panned Smulyan as a Brignola (or was it Pepper Adams) clone?

He doesn't comment of his playing here, just the others.

[Larry Kart]

40 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

He doesn't comment of his playing here, just the others.

I've now become a Smulyan fan, despite my former comments, which you recall accurately. We live and learn. I should add that IMO Smulyan has grown a fair bit over the years.

[Dan Gould]

2 hours ago, sonnymax said:

Accusation, or question?

Surprise at the recommendation.

But as Chuck points out he give credit elsewhere and doesn't mention Smulyan. Maybe Larry will clarify why he gives thumbs up here.

[Teasing the Korean]

4 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Surprise at the recommendation.

But as Chuck points out he give credit elsewhere and doesn't mention Smulyan. Maybe Larry will clarify why he gives thumbs up here.

Larry wrote that "I've now become a Smulyan fan, despite my former comments, which you recall accurately. We live and learn. I should add that IMO Smulyan has grown a fair bit over the years."

What does he need to clarify for you?

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Larry wrote that "I've now become a Smulyan fan, despite my former comments, which you recall accurately. We live and learn. I should add that IMO Smulyan has grown a fair bit over the years."

What does he need to clarify for you?

I'd add that when I first heard Smulyan he pretty much sounded like a Pepper Adams clone to me.. Over time I think he's grown much more distinctive. 

[JSngry]

I'd like to "grown" how? How more distinctive? Tone? Phrasing? Not hearing much of that here? 

Me, I'm like, he's still Pepper-redux, even if "evolved" . But Post-Pepper, you got Cuber in one lane, Bluiett in another, and Cecil Payne still holding down that one. Plus Pat Patrick. They're all dead now. Do those lanes need filling? No? New lanes, maybe? Yes? 

So...the Pepper Placeholder chair, important for the business, sure. But for the music itself? I remain unconvinced. But certainly there are those who like it, and for them, there it is 

[sgcim]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I'd like to "grown" how? How more distinctive? Tone? Phrasing? Not hearing much of that here? 

Me, I'm like, he's still Pepper-redux, even if "evolved" . But Post-Pepper, you got Cuber in one lane, Bluiett in another, and Cecil Payne still holding down that one. Plus Pat Patrick. They're all dead now. Do those lanes need filling? No? New lanes, maybe? Yes? 

So...the Pepper Placeholder chair, important for the business, sure. But for the music itself? I remain unconvinced. But certainly there are those who like it, and for them, there it is 

There's Phil Woods in there, too.

[JSngry]

As a bari player? 

[Dan Gould]

I'd never seen Larry retract or modify his prior comment which IIRC, wasn't really all that long ago.

[Larry Kart]

What? I have to keep a continuous record of my opinions? 

11 hours ago, sgcim said:

There's Phil Woods in there, too.

The  unusual depth and strength of tone, plus, as Ralph La Lama put it, "Gary's ability to stack chords on chords,"  and I would add make that all come out as coherent lines. 

About Woods I've testified/explained at length here many times. After about 1958 , lead work aside, IMO it often became bells and whistles, snorts and chortles.  

P.S. I love Cuber.

[Dan Gould]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

What? I have to keep a continuous record of my opinions? 

 

No apparently I am expected to.

JC this is ridiculous. The only comment Ihad seen by you regarding Smulyan was that he was a knockoff of Pepper Adams. Sorry for missing your change of heart.

[Larry Kart]

P.S .I really like the Smluyan and Brass album.

[Daniel A]

5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

I'd never seen Larry retract or modify his prior comment which IIRC, wasn't really all that long ago.

Actually, Larry retracted his opinion on July 3:

"Finally I'm all aboard the Smulyan train. Accompanied by nine brass and rhythm playing heady Belden originals, Smulyan sounds great here."

 

[JSngry]

Phil Woods did?

I'm really confused, sorry. 

[sonnymax]

2 hours ago, sgcim said:

He started out as an alto player, and when he switched to bari, everyone just said he sounded like PW on bari.

Would you kindly cite an example where Woods plays baritone sax? I'd like to hear it for myself. Thanks.

[Larry Kart]

You saw my qualification that the bells and whistles, snorts and chortles side of PW began rather suddenly and for whatever reason around 1958 and that I'm talking about PW as a soloist not as a lead player, where I concede his stature. In any case, I'm familiar with many of the recordings you cite and would add that if you can't tell the difference in style and IMO quality between the  frequently marvelous PW of, say: Jazz for the Carriage Trade (Prestige, 1956),The New York Scene (Prestige, 1957),Jazz at Hotchkiss (Savoy, 1957) and many other recordings of that period and BEFORE then our minds will never meet on this subject, which is fine with me. Two pre-change PW favorites of mine BTW: Quincy Jones' "This Is How I Feel about Jazz" (his solos on "A Sleepin' Bee" and "Walkin" [!!!]) and Red Garland's "Sugan." As far as "Tell that to," I'm not  the only longtime listener who feels the way I do about latter day PW.

A story: I went to Rick's Cafe American to review PW's working band of the time (don't recall the year, but Jim McNeely was on piano) and was surprised that the bebop carnival ride side of PW was not to be heard; instead his lines were quite shapely and lucid in an almost pre-'58 PW manner. After the set he explained to the audience that the band had had terrible airline trouble and almost no sleep the night before and were pretty much exhausted but that we should stick around and all would be well.  Of course I stuck around,  and the second set was carnival time again.

BTW, why the circa '58 change in PW? I have a feeling that Chan might have had something to do with it.

11 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

Would you kindly cite an example where Woods plays baritone sax? I'd like to hear it for myself. Thanks.

He means that Smulyan started out on alto etc.

[sgcim]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

You saw my qualification that the bells and whistles, snorts and chortles side of PW began rather suddenly and for whatever reason around 1958 and that I'm talking about PW as a soloist not as a lead player, where I concede his stature. In any case, I'm familiar with many of the recordings you cite and would add that if you can't tell the difference in style and IMO quality between the  frequently marvelous PW of, say: Jazz for the Carriage Trade (Prestige, 1956),The New York Scene (Prestige, 1957),Jazz at Hotchkiss (Savoy, 1957) and many other recordings of that period and BEFORE then our minds will never meet on this subject, which is fine with me. Two pre-change PW favorites of mine BTW: Quincy Jones' "This Is How I Feel about Jazz" (his solos on "A Sleepin' Bee" and "Walkin" [!!!]) and Red Garland's "Sugan." As far as "Tell that to," I'm not  the only longtime listener who feels the way I do about latter day PW.

A story: I went to Rick's Cafe American to review PW's working band of the time (don't recall the year, but Jim McNeely was on piano) and was surprised that the bebop carnival ride side of PW was not to be heard; instead his lines were quite shapely and lucid in an almost pre-'58 PW manner. After the set he explained to the audience that the band had had terrible airline trouble and almost no sleep the night before and were pretty much exhausted but that we should stick around and all would be well.  Of course I stuck around,  and the second set was carnival time again.

BTW, why the circa '58 change in PW? I have a feeling that Chan might have had something to do with it.

He means that Smulyan started out on alto etc.

Yeah, you've told me that story before, and it proves nothing Go ask Ken what he thinks of PW.

[Larry Kart]

Didn't offer it as proof but as an anecdote -- we're in an area where proof doesn't exist. There are violinists who don't care for Heifetz. And Ken who?

[sgcim]

4 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Didn't offer it as proof but as an anecdote -- we're in an area where proof doesn't exist. There are violinists who don't care for Heifetz. And Ken who?

Umm... Dryden?

[JSngry]

Griffey? 

[sgcim]

21 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Griffey? 

Yeah, he might like PW, too...LOL!