Great Post-War big band swing records (No Basie / Ellington)

[ghost of miles]

18 hours ago, gmonahan said:

Yes, that's the comp album I was thinking of in my previous post. It had Buddy Rich on drums. Jim was more accurate than I was in noting that James recorded for MGM, not Verve. Verve *reissued* some of that early 60s MGM stuff.  There's another compilation of MGM things in this one:

 

I picked this one up as well as the Silver Collection years ago precisely because that’s about all of the Harry James MGM you’re going to find on CD—domestically speaking, anyway. (Not sure if more has been reissued in Japan or elsewhere.) I once asked either Michael or Scott at Mosaic about the possibility of a James MGM set. They agreed that it was an excellent band, but that such a set was unlikely. Not sure how well that James/Krupa Capitol set sold, but that might have been the rationale for their hesitancy re a James MGM collection.

Per the thread topic and speaking of Bill Finegan, don’t sleep on Tommy Dorsey’s late-1940s postwar big band. This Bluebird compilation, with notes by Loren Schoenberg, provides a good overview:

Tommy Dorsey: The Postwar Era

There are a couple of Hep CDs that document this period as well.

[Big Beat Steve]

24 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

Per the thread topic and speaking of Bill Finegan, don’t sleep on Tommy Dorsey’s late-1940s postwar big band. This Bluebird compilation, with notes by Loren Schoenberg, provides a good overview:

Tommy Dorsey: The Postwar Era

There are a couple of Hep CDs that document this period as well.

True (to the extent I am familiar with his post-war output - which is far frmo complete). But to follow up Rabshakeh's quest for vinyl recommendations right away, here are the Tommy Dorsey "late 40s/early 50s modernized swing big band" records that I'd recommend in the first place according to what I've acquired over time (these are mostly broadcasts and transcriptions, so no overlap with the RCAs):

- "At The Fat Man's" (1946-49), Hep 9
- "1950-52", First Time FTR-1519
- "1950-1952", Solid Sender SOL511 (the First Time and Solid Sender have some overlaps)

The below two are split about 50/50 between pre-1942 and post-war recordings and would be nice if found cheaply. It's amazing hearing the TD big band digging into the R&B/Hillbilly Boogie warhorse "Birmingham Bounce":
- "Swing High", Sounds of Swing LP-106
- "Easy Does it" Swing Era LP-1003

 

And as for his brother Jimmy, the one below (also released on Musidisc 30 JA 5221) has some amazing moments featuring a young Maynard Ferguson:

- "Diz Does Everything", Big Band Archives LP-1216
 

[Rabshakeh]

That's great. I was vaguely worried that the Dorseys wouldn't get a look in.

What are the Harry James records.with which to start? There's been a lot of discussion on a couple of them.

[Big Beat Steve]

I cannot comment on the ones mentioned so far here as I am not familiar with them. But I am not the one who can provide comprehensive assessments anyway - just individual and subjective recommendations.

The ones from the post-war era of Harry James that I own and find interesting and worthwhile jazzwise (because they largely avoid his schmaltzy trumpet excursions) are these:

- "Big John Special" (1948-50), Hep 24
- "Vol. 1" (1946-1949), Solid Sender SOL 501 (this has one or the other  track where I'd be really interested to see how they would fare in a blindfold test - I'd bet that many would be stumped 😁)
- "Vol. 2" (1944-1954), Solid Sender SOL 504 (some of its contents may be identical with "1945-1949", First Heard FH-9)
- "The Uncollected Vol. 3" (1948-49), Hindsight HSR-135
- "The Uncollected Vol. 6" (1947-49), Hindsight HSR-150
- "All The Way" (2-LP set, only 2 from 1941 and 45, rest from 1946 to 1954, about half Columbias, half broadcasts), Big Band Archives, LP-2202

You will again notice that except for the last one these again focus on airshots, transcriptions and live recordings. This was not THAT intentional but was dictated by availability, and over time I have found with "name" bands (white ones, in particular) where you search for the jazzier items but can do without the obvious commmercial suspects it was hard to find really great vinyl reissues (except for the bands covered by the RCA Bluebird twofers, for example). Because whenever the majors did a "selective" reissue on one of their former big band money earners they usually went by the "something for everybody" principle and almost always included a fair share of the often-heard "memory lane" items (making a point of trying to please whoever was left of the band's erstwhile bobbysoxer audience, it seems). Or when did you last see a vinyl reissue with a specific target like "The Jazz Side of ... (add name of "name" band with a mixed-bag discography)"?
So I have found that the collector's labels often were/are the better bet if you are looking for the jazzier tracks on vinyl.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Seriously, start with the video up above for Harry James. The music is good and the visuals give a really full context for what that band was about.

And keep in mind that Vegas was their home base for decades. 

[Rabshakeh]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:53 PM, JSngry said:

I can tell you that Harry James consistently led excellent bands up until the end, but I couldn't point you to any specific records. 

 

It's a great video. Exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. Who is the drummer?

[JSngry]

Buddy Rich

[Rabshakeh]

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Buddy Rich

With the clean shaved head?

[JSngry]

Oops, wrong video, my bad.

That drummer is identifiecd as one Tony DeNicola.

Also, the second of those tenor players is Jay Corre, who went on to play in Buddy's first post-James band. a very agreeable player imo.

The video with Buddy is this one. Recommended to watch the entire thing, because they cover a lot of bases before they're finished, all of it within their own zone. Stay tuned for the electric piano solo. In 1965!

As far as CD recs, I would think that the two Verves listed above are probably going to be the only available issues of quality for this era.

Same(ish) band, Tokyo, 1964

I would point out that the book is not a rehash of 30s-40s sounds, even when the songs themselves are (when they are). It's the type of thing that won't scare off any old listeners, and yet won't run off slightly more "modern" (relatively) ears.

Plus, having a home base in Vegas meant steady employment for the players, as well as ongoing commissions for writers.

The Harry James band was pretty stealth, actually.

[AllenLowe]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Seriously, start with the video up above for Harry James. The music is good and the visuals give a really full context for what that band was about.

And keep in mind that Vegas was their home base for decades. 

one thing I almost always note - I love that 1950s edition of the James band, and he had a trombonist, Carl Elmer, who I think may be, after Knepper, the best bebop trombonist I have ever heard. You have to search for his solos, but they are great.

Edited August 24, 2023 by AllenLowe

[Big Beat Steve]

9 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

one thing I almost always note - I love that 1950s edition of the James band, and he had a trombonist, Carl Elmer, who I think may be, after Knepper, the best bebop trombonist I have ever heard. You have to search for his solos, but they are great.

Carl Elmer aka Ziggy Elmer? (Not to be confused with the namesakish trumpet Elman) He was singled out in the liner notes of several of the LPs I mentioned and was praised on the Hep LP.
 

[Big Beat Steve]

14 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

It's a great video. Exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. Who is the drummer?

Fester Addams!

And yes - this version of "Lester Leaps in" is great.

(And here it is on CD:)
https://www.discogs.com/release/14397447-Various-The-Sullivan-Years-Big-Band-All-Stars

But you can see how choosy and picky you have to be with bands like his - the next video that comes up on YT when you watch this Harry James video is his "Soft Lights Sweet Trumpet" LP! Ouch ... 😕 Maybe this still epitomizes Harry James in the minds of many ... (The early 50s 10" pressing of this somehow came my way twice as fleamarket finds, and I've relegated both to the "Easy Listening" corner of my own fleamarket crate since)

Edited August 25, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Harry James found a way to have enough demand for his product to keep a working band together for several decades. He didn't do it by ignoring his past, but he also didn't do it by being trapped by it either.

A bit of a difficult balancing act! 

 

[AllenLowe]

8 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Carl Elmer aka Ziggy Elmer? (Not to be confused with the namesakish trumpet Elman) He was singled out in the liner notes of several of the LPs I mentioned and was praised on the Hep LP.
 

that's the guy. Great player.

42 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Harry James found a way to have enough demand for his product to keep a working band together for several decades. He didn't do it by ignoring his past, but he also didn't do it by being trapped by it either.

A bit of a difficult balancing act! 

 

James's soloing is a very interesting, I think, amalgamation of Armstrong and Eldridge; a little florid at times, but really fine work.

I want to post this, though it is slightly off topic - it does show how well Harry James played and was regarded by fellow musicians with less commercial cache even early on -

Buck Clayton, t / Vernon Brown, tb / Earl Warren, as / Jack Washington, as, bar / Herschel Evans, ts / Jess Stacy, p / Walter Page, sb / Jo Jones, d. New York, January 5, 1938

 

[Big Beat Steve]

Re- Texas Chatter:
Recommended vinyl buying for Rabshakeh:
The "Texas Chatter 1937-38" LP on TAX m-8015 (which has 2 takes of "Texas Chatter", BTW)

[Rabshakeh]

Pre-war. Pt pt.

[JSngry]

I had an uncle that had this 78 and played it for me a lot of times, just for Elmer's trombone solo.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

@Rabshakeh (post-war again this time ) :
"East Coast Blues" is on the "All The Way" LP I listed.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Rabshakeh]

Great news. Sorry to be a parameters dictator.

[gmonahan]

Re Jim's comment--Jay Corre was indeed a very fine saxophonist, and I second his affection for Corre's work with Rich. As for James's commercial stuff, that's what put the dollar sign on the trumpet, and frankly, I love it. He had amazingly beautiful tone. I think I remember reading somewhere that James was one of Miles Davis's favorite trumpeters! He apparently liked James's tone too. It really is remarkable that he kept a band going as long as he did, and even more interesting that Buddy Rich apparently liked playing with him. I'm sure James paid him well, but the chemistry must have just been right.

Edited to add that the version of "Walk on the Wild Side" on the video sounded so much like the Rich Pacific Jazz band that I pulled out those cds to see if he'd recorded it!

Edited August 26, 2023 by gmonahan

[AllenLowe]

On 8/25/2023 at 1:31 PM, Rabshakeh said:

Great news. Sorry to be a parameters dictator.

sorry, I thought you meant World War I.

[Rabshakeh]

2 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

sorry, I thought you meant World War I.

That might have been an easier job.

[Rabshakeh]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:08 PM, Niko said:

imho, Mike Zwerin's memories of playing with Claude Thornhill in the 50s are required reading on this topic,

https://jazzprofiles.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-square-on-lawn-by-michael-zwerin.html

(the relevant part starts with "When I came back to New York from Miami," but the stuff before is actually interesting, too)

Just read this. Required reading indeed. So scungy.

[Big Beat Steve]

Yes, interesting (and sad in a way).
But if Claude Thornhill was that far down by 1958 when Zwerin gigged with him, by comparison Boyd Raeburn (also well down compared to his 40s Progressive Jazz fame) had fared comparatively better because he had just "gone commercial". His LPs for Columbia in the later 50s ("Dance Spectacular", "Fraternity Rush" and "Teen Rock") are listenable but very mainstreamy and comparatively undistinguished by jazz standards, despite a near-all star-ish lineup.
I am not familiar with the Claude Thornhill LPs from the later 50s (on Columbia and Design) but from the description on Discogs I gather they are broadly in the same category, probably leaning even more towards easy listening.
From the later Boyd Raeburn items, I have his "Teen Rock" LP (Columbia CL 1073, telltale period cover - see below) and have filed it in a "big bands trying to stay with the rockin' times" corner of my collection along with these:
- Dan Terry "Teen Age Dance Party" (Columbia/Harmony)
- Ray Conniff "Dance The Bop" (Columbia/Harmony, released as "Rockin The Bop, Boppin' The Rock" on Philips in Europe)
- Ronn Metcalfe "Twistin' At The Woodchoppers' Ball" (Barry)
- "The Twist with Ray Anthony" (Capitol)

Amusing late 50s/early 60s big bands if taken with a relaxed smile and not too seriously ...

[Rabshakeh]

On 8/31/2023 at 2:09 PM, Big Beat Steve said:

Yes, interesting (and sad in a way).
But if Claude Thornhill was that far down by 1958 when Zwerin gigged with him, by comparison Boyd Raeburn (also well down compared to his 40s Progressive Jazz fame) had fared comparatively better because he had just "gone commercial". His LPs for Columbia in the later 50s ("Dance Spectacular", "Fraternity Rush" and "Teen Rock") are listenable but very mainstreamy and comparatively undistinguished by jazz standards, despite a near-all star-ish lineup.
I am not familiar with the Claude Thornhill LPs from the later 50s (on Columbia and Design) but from the description on Discogs I gather they are broadly in the same category, probably leaning even more towards easy listening.
From the later Boyd Raeburn items, I have his "Teen Rock" LP (Columbia CL 1073, telltale period cover - see below) and have filed it in a "big bands trying to stay with the rockin' times" corner of my collection along with these:
- Dan Terry "Teen Age Dance Party" (Columbia/Harmony)
- Ray Conniff "Dance The Bop" (Columbia/Harmony, released as "Rockin The Bop, Boppin' The Rock" on Philips in Europe)
- Ronn Metcalfe "Twistin' At The Woodchoppers' Ball" (Barry)
- "The Twist with Ray Anthony" (Capitol)

Amusing late 50s/early 60s big bands if taken with a relaxed smile and not too seriously ...

Who bought these?

Surely some duck-tailed teenager hoodlum isn't going to suddenly buy a Claude Thornhill record just because it has "rock" in the title? And we're not yet at the post-Beatles stage where parents are buying nicely arranged instrumental versions of those loud rock and pops.

Were these solely aimed at well-meaning uncles and grandparents buying mistaken Christmas presents, or something?

I've had a listen and it's clearly still big band music, even if it now has a prominent guitar or baritone saxophone playing bass parts.

It's actually alright. I weirdly quite like it. Boyd's shaken off Stravinsky, and it's a fairly gentle but danceable arranger's record.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Rabshakeh