mracz

An interesting idea for a thread. I'll second the McFarland/Kuhn October Suite: beautiful match between soloist and compositional framework and one of my favourite albums of the period. Speaking of George Russell, how about Bill Evans on All About Rosie or Paul Bley and Bill Evans on Jazz in the Space Age, or Coltrane on Manhattan? Also the Electronic Sonata with Jan Garbarek, Terje Rypdal, etc. There's a Bill Russo piece for alto and strings (quartet?) from the fifties, written for Lee Konitz which IIRC is rather fine as well, and sets off Lee's playing beautifully (it's called Images of Man or something like that). Actually, a lot of Mingus works like this for me (think Clarence Shaw and Jimmy Knepper on Tijuana Moods), Gil Evans (not just the Miles collaborations, but Wayne on Barbara Song, acoustic Kenny Burrell on Lotus Land and many others). I suppose you could say that Ellington was the ultimate master of providing the framework for the soloists he had to hand...

Hemphill plus Abdul Wadud live in NY Many Derek Bailey projects,including duos with Braxton and Lacy

Thanks, brownie! How could all of the rest of us forgotten that? IIRC, so did Hamp in the late 40s. The parts were written, as with Ellington, both players usually on the same part.

Smokestack. Cecil's Unit Structures with Alan Silva and Henry Grimes: silva high up with the bow, grimes with a chthonic low bass part. Ornette with Izenson and Haden. LaFaro and Haden on Free Jazz: the two bass duet at the end is my favourite bit of the album. All of Coltrane's two bass experiments. A really interesting topic!

Listen to the Orchestra with Art Farmer. BTW a favourite of Mike Gibbs...

IMHO in this case the extra material is worth it, and I'm not an obsessive collector of alternate takes...

Dolphy is on quite a few Hamilton recordings. There's a handy 2CD package on a Spanish label with all the studio tracks: Mode has a particularly fine alto solo, but there's a lot of other worthwhile stuff. These tracks give you a clear sense of where he was coming from. The full Newport set with Hamilton has also been issued, but I haven't heard it...

Don't forget the astonishing bass clarinet/bass duet with Mingus on this album's What Love.

The trio albums with the same rhythm section as the above (Waldron, Workman, Blackwell) are also very good indeed: Breaking New Ground and You and the Night and the Music. I downloaded the former from emusic a couple of years ago and just picked up an LP of the latter. Breaking New Ground includes a Michael Jackson cover (!) and You and the Night is mostly standards. It has Reggie and Ed well forward in the mix, and it's wonderful to hear the trio as a TRIO rather than piano + bass and drums. The interaction between the three is very special and very intense. Ethan Iverson refers to them admiringly as the "Mal Waldron Evil Trio". They also recorded an LP of Satie covers (sic) which I would be intrigued to hear at least once... Ed was a master and always brought something special to the music-making. I love his work on Don Cherry's Complete Communion as well. I only heard him live once, in the Ornette Quartet with Dewey and Charlie Haden at Princes Street, back in the early 70s, a real treat.

touché! I don't know this set! Thanks for mentioning it. TOUCHÉ I don't know this set! Thanks for mentioning it.

Try Laurence Cummings on Naxos (also very fine Louis Couperin)

Yes , two definitive solos. I'm still holding my breath waiting to hear the recently discovered 2nd take of Prez' version with Basie and the 5tet (see Prez thread...).

I'd forgotten about the EMI composer plays.... Sets. There's a Poulenc one as well, and an integral set with number of different composers. Thanks for the DG Hindemith recommendation: that one passed me by. Yes, great recordings, although I know the later electrical recordings better. The violin concerto with Menuhin is fabulous, as is the cello concerto with Beatrice Harrison (very different from many modern approaches), and a fine 1st Symphony. It takes a few minutes to get used to the style of orchestral playing (lots of portamenti and very noticeable shifts of positions in the strings), but once your ears adapt, they have a lot to offer.

The last great living modernist composer? Discuss...

Messiaen playing his own organ music. Rather approximate rhythmically compared to most modern interpreters, but full of atmosphere. The Visions de l'amen with Measiaen and Yvonne Loriod is also fine. Frederic Rzewski is a masterful performer of his own virtuoso piano music. Philip Glass with his ensemble.

Sofronitsky. Try the 1960 recitals, especially a two-disc set on Japanese Denon (mid-price ordered from Japan) with a a whole bunch of the Poems interspersed with the 8th and 9th Sonatas, or the Arbiter disc which includes his last public concert (Jan 1961), while he was mortally ill with cancer, playing Skryabin's own piano in the Skryabin museum. Very special atmosphere and music-making. He married Skryabin's daughter, and many of his contemporaries (including Richter) regarded him as the definitive interpreter. The studio recordings are often very restrained, but live in concert the music has a darkness of hue and an appropriately sulphurous atmosphere that is without parallel. Feinberg also fantastic, but there are very few recordings by him (sonatas 2, 4 and 5, the last on Arbiter, plus some short pieces. 5 is particularly fine). He was the pianist of the younger generation that Skryabin most admired playing his own music. Richter is phenomenal, the 5th sonata both in the DG set and from Prague, the 9th sonata from Aldeburgh, and an all-Skryabin recital disc from Warsaw on the Parnassus label (formerly on the Music and Arts label). The 1950s Melodiya recordings of a group of etudes plus the 6th sonata are also superb, and there is a bootleg of the 7th Sonata which is particularly astonishing, technically perfect but visionary at the same time, and there aren't many pianists who can bring that combination off! There is a late recording of the late Preludes by Gilels (I think it's in the Brilliant Gilels set) which is marvellous. A shame he didn't record more. Of more recent recordings, Yevgeny Sudbin has impressed me most. BTW Skryabin's piano rolls are worth a listen, particularly in the Appian remasterings, although sadly they don't include the 2nd movement of the 2nd sonata and the 1st and 2nd movements of the 3rd sonata, which don't seem to be generally available. The 2nd sonata gives you a really vivid sense of his extreme tempo fluctuation, and suggests the kind of inspired and improvisatory flair that his contemporaries describe in his performances. No sense whatsoever of his famous subtleties of tone and colour, but hey, it's better to have these imperfect artefacts rather than nothing at all.

The Shostakovich recordings of selections from his own Preludes and Fugues and the Op 34 Preludes are also worth tracking down. As to others: Rachmaninov: Definitive recordings of his own concerti, but sadly not enough of his solo works. If they sound very different from most modern performances could it be because modern performers are not getting it quite right? Prokofiev: a good CD's worth of his own music, including the third concerto. Bartok: Definitive performances of the 2nd violin sonata and first Rhapsody with Szigeti (Library of Congress, late 1930's), plus some very fine commercial discs (Suite op 14, Allegro Barbaro, part of the Improvisations Op 20, 6 Romanian Dances, many, many pieces from Mikrokosmos, the first recording of Contrasts with Szigeti and Benny Goodman). For anoraks, there are excerpts from the 2nd concerto in poor sound, but very interesting indeed. A very classy pianist with a more flexible and even "romantic" style than you might imagine: extraordinary playing. I enjoy Stravinsky's recordings of his own piano works, but he is more of a "composer's" pianist, ditto the Duo Concertant with Szigeti... Bear in mind that not all composers are virtuoso performers, and their own performances are perhaps not always what they would have produced if they were better executants, but there is always something to learn. Charles Ives' recordings are fascinating, and the excerpts from the Concord Sonata give you a sense of his improvisatory freedom. Medtner's recordings of his own music(issued by APR) are very fine indeed. Britten and Rostropovich playing Britten's Cello Sonata. Probably lots of others that I can't remember at the moment. Ah, Poulenc, both solo pieces and song accompaniments to Pierre Bernac. Lots of pedal and some faking, but full of character. Piano rolls can be interesting and Appian in Texas have produced some very nice CDs of Skryabin, Debussy and Mahler, ie composers who left no disc recordings (there are many other remasterings of this material, but these are the best I've heard). There are enormous limitations in the medium but they are very useful with regards to tempi, rubato, etc. Debussy's doubling of the tempo on page 2 of La Cathedrale Engloutie is a famous example (the piano roll makes it clear that this is the way he wanted it, and for some reason left out the doppio movimento marking that would have indicated this). Composers CONDUCTING their own music is another big topic! Just remembered, there's a wonderful Marston CD of Grieg and Saint-Saens playing their own short pieces. Really wonderful, although the sound is rather primitive... Don't bother with earlier remasterings, they have unlistenable wow, which has been corrected in this CD from a few years back. I hope this gives you something to get started on!

Well, a question of taste. I couldn´t imagine music without the bass. The bass is the bottom of the whole thing. I started listenig to jazz because I fell in love with that sound Paul Chambers had on the records I´d buy then (Davis etc.). No bass, no jazz....at least to me. About Jimmy Garrison: You will be astonished but I like most what he did on those two records he made with Ornette in 1968. About his solo work: I agree with some of you, that at a certain point there is not very much variation in it, but that´s what it was supposed to be, a more meditative kind of music. Anyway, some bassists they great as long as they walk on or stay at the bottom, but when they start soloing, they start to practice. Take as an example the last Mingus Date "Me Myself an Eye" and "Something like a Bird". Eddie Gomez and Jiri Mraz just get lost, only high notes, each of them sounding the same way, sounds like exercises. I heard Mingus was very unpleasant about it. But not only because he was not able to play any more, but because of the way it came out. You can tell a story on the bass, not just pickin only the high notes and faster and faster..... they both sound great in the ensemble, but forget them when they start soloing on that record..... I remember Dave Holland talking about his time with Miles. He was getting over-elaborate and virtuosic with lots of high register playing one night, and in between sets Miles simply said: "Hey, Dave, you play the bass". I can see where you're coming from, in no small part because I used to think the same way. I don't think there's any need for "conversion" in disagreement (the "I used to think that" line of debate is a huge irritant of mine), but I seriously think that close listening to Garrison will reward improv listeners with a huge appreciation for what can be done in an (admittedly--occasionally) straightjacketing idiom. I take some issue with the Parker comparison--they're similar on several facile levels (huge, woody sound, a preference for modal/vamplike contexts and only minor dynamic variation, "status" placement in key rhythm quartet bands--Ware v. Coltrane, that is), but it's worth noting that Parker actually lived through 20-30 years of musical developments before really coming into his own in his own idiom. That is, it's sort of difficult to make the call that playing like Garrison is the only, right, or logical "way" in a free jazz sort of context after Barry Guy, Johnny Dyani, Harry Miller, Peter Kowald, Yoshizawa Motoharu, Tatsu Aoki, Fred Hopkins, Malachi Favors, later Reggie Workman, etc. etc. etc. History can color our perception of things, and I think Parker sounds even more regressive considering that he's harkened back to the already historical Garrison thing and streamlined that. Garrison may not sound sound like the ideal bassist for late Trane--not after the Europeans, AACM cats, Japanese, and South Africans, and not after the promise of Richard Davis--but he's the only one among that crowd to have to grapple with the dilemma of adapting the repertoire of bop era bass to completely unprecedented freedom--and, by that token, he's really the only once who "succeeded." He figured it out first, and maybe by virtue of fighting that fight, understood the meaning of that freedom "the best." Parker, on the other hand, sort of studied the evidence, read the journals, did the science, and decided that Garrison's mathematics was more valuable than any number of other discoveries in the interim. What changed my mind on all this was actually getting stuck in late Trane for a bit (this is happening again, thanks to Jim's thread). In terms of articulation, phrasing, and especially rhythm, he is nothing like Parker. Jim mentioned in (I think) the Interstellar Space AOTW thread that (and I'm paraphrasing the hell out of this) Trane had basically exhausted the possibilities of harmonic freedom, although he never really got there rhythmically. Coltrane was a lot more systematic, a lot less freewheeling and pliable that Rollins or even Shorter. Another way to interpret this is that rhythmic filigree was at a sort of odds with late Trane's music, which still sounds hard, direct, and sort of monolithic. I look at Garrison as a sort of bass reduction of this aspect of Trane--not so much inflexible as steely and very much noodle-averse. Whereas Parker is a bit of a thrasher (phrase-wise), Garrison is extraordinarily selective with where he phrases his lines--in relief with Ali's drumming, I have to imagine this was a deliberate way of doing things. Keep in mind this was the guy who flipped out on Ornette because he didn't understand the concept--and a dude who played much more busily on (later) New York Is Now! and Love Call. Garrison's bass solos were always a sort of interlude--a respite from the maelstrom--but in that later band, Garrison found a way to integrate that soloistic approach with the ensemble sound. This was unprecedented as fuck, as I think only Charlie Haden was really operating on this level at that time. Guys like Gary Peacock and Lewis Worrell were classic--maybe paradigmatic--free improv thrashers, and their role was more as a precedent for the hardcore bass liberation that guys like Barry Guy and Dyani were working with later in the decade. Garrison, on the other hand--and maybe because he was a really systematic thinker, who knows--found a way to operate soloistically while still thinking in terms of counterpoint to the melody--and he didn't do it by playing less busy, necessarily, but by basically improvising a reduction of Trane's harmonic conceits. Resultantly, Garrison is very rhythmically assymetric (much more oblique than Parker), but still melodically lucid. This is a much more "inside" way of doing things, which might be why Garrison is still so "legit" to mainstream cats and maybe not so hot to out people. This is what I meant by egoless, and I have endless love, respect, and admiration for Jimmy Garrison for being this oddball voice of "reason" in an era when people weren't really giving half a damn about reason. That wouldn't be "enough," really, to put him in the pantheon, but I discovered that Garrison's depth and poise actually gave me sort of a lifeline back when late Coltrane sounded like chaos. Don't get me wrong--chaos is freaking awesome--but listening to Garrison actually foregrounded the calmness, beauty, love, etc. at the center of late Coltrane--which I definitely think was an important (and often ignored) part of the message. There are few greater skills for a bass player, AFAIC, than getting the listener to hear the rest of the band differently and "better." Killer Garrison to this effect may be heard on: Live in Japan -Maybe the most subdued of the late Quintet recordings, it's possible to listen to this as one long rhythm section piece. The interplay between Alice, Jimmy, and Rashied is really striking--like one long, unending dominant chord that somehow relaxes you into the middle of the tension. More than the Quartet music, this feels like Coltrane improvising over something orchestral and endlessly rich in color and stasis. Expression -Similar to Live in Japan, but more compressed and maybe more dynamic. What Garrison does with his role in the arrangements is truly spectacular--listen to stuff like "Seraphic Light," where with might otherwise sound like a noodle-y, vaguely "Eastern" drone actually achieves a degree of slow, powerful melodic momentum. That's real spontaneous orchestration. Cosmic Music -The Trane tracks on this album are kind of atrociously mixed, but that maximizes (in weird ways) the beauty of Garrison's contribution. His pizzicato work here is really fascinating--the band is at full tilt and the horns get severely unmelodic in places, but Garrison manages to turn that into a weird dialogue--two sides (horns v. bass/piano) at cross-purposes, where the harmony is actually only a shadow of what the horns are doing (rather than vice-versa). Stellar Regions (see Expression The Olatunji Concert -The consensus on this album seems to be that it sounds so bad that it's actually kind of awesome, and I agree with that. The drums are absolutely out of control, but the fact that Jimmy is also pushing the mic waaaay past red says something about his power and aplomb. Garrison earns a medal for not only engaging in a dialogue with what is essentially the world's longest atom bomb denotation, but also for complementing and reinforcing the power with a really inconceivable clarity. In terms of solos, the "intro" to My Favourite Things on LATTVVA is a favourite.

Amen. By coincidence I was listening yesterday to a concertg version of Bye Bye Blackbird from 1963 with Jimmy well forward in the mix. His playing behind McCoy's solo is astonishing, particularly in terms of his rhythmic inventiveness, rarely playing straight fours for very long and with amazing flexibility. Far more than the odd syncopated delay or anticipation of the beat, and there were very few bassists in 1963 who could do this while maintaining the rhythmic stability and hook-up with the drums. Masterful musicianship! I've always had the sense that Rudy van G's studio recordings did no favours to Garrison, and in this (and a number of other live recordings, including Chasin' the Trane, you can really hear what he could do.

Yes, the alternates of Evening and Boogie Woogie would be the cherry on the cake, but the LBG alternate will be very special. I never picked up the Phontastic, as I had the material in other permutations, so I missed the reference in the liner notes to the 2nd take. Incidentally, I thought I had all of Pres' pre-war recordings, but there were some tracks listed in the solography that I couldn't remember coming across (even in the very comprehensive Masters of Jazz Pres and Basie series). I'll have a look through my collection this weekend and see what's missing. I've been meaning to email Jan to thank him for his generosity in providing all this research gratis on his website. It's a remarkable achievement, and endlessly fascinating. Even when I don't agree with his opinion about particular items, he's always stimulating and more than once has spurred me to listen again to tracks that I thought I knew very well. I enjoy sitting in a comfortble chair on a Sunday morning, ipad in hand, the Jazz Archaeology solographies for Frankie Newton or Joe Thomas on the screen, and using Spotify to work through the recordings. Even with much/most of the material sitting upstairs on vinyl/CD, it's really luxurious to have so much of the material to hand. Bliss!

I think I'm complete for Hank Mobley's authorised releases (I know from this forum that there is live material out there from Europe, but I've not come across it). Love his playing, fascinating to hear him evolve and change over time, and even the less promising sessions usually have at least one special moment. I'm complete for Trane's commercial recordings, and I have a great many of the non-commercial. The live recordings still throw up surprises/delights, and I particularly enjoyed hearing the Jazz Gallery recordings with Pete Larocca (sp?). The Coltrane quartet before it became THE Coltrane quartet...

Has anyone else looked at Jan Evensmo's newly posted Pred solography on the Jazz Archaeology website? He notes a recently discovered 2Nd take of Lady Be Good from 1936! Yes, that one! WTF, or does everyone else already know about this? At least it's not dated April 1st!

Buddy Tate & Abdullah Ibrahim is pretty nice, bought a copy when new at a very short-lived store here in Portland, OR Jazz Messengers are advertising this one in their September catalogue at mid-price. Any more fans of this album? On paper it sounds like a good bet, as Tate's tone should mesh well with A.I.'s style. If you want to hear it now... eMusic It is a good'un. Thanks. I still subscribe to e music (although I'm losing interest) so will have a look!

Having been at this show and having seen the trio many times in the '70s, I'd say that while this music is great, it's not the definitive document of the working group as is The Quest from the trio's heyday (recorded 1976, released on Red in Italy and Pausa in USA). There's one other recording by this trio, similarly hard to find if not more so, but I'm blanking out on the title. Ah, found it here: http://www.bb10k.com/RIVERS.disc.html Paragon, from 1977. Definitely more obscure than The Quest. Listening to The Quest right now. Exquisite. If you can find a rip on the internets, grab it. I downloaded The Quest earlier this year from emusic (they have a number of interesting Red titles). A masterpiece, more evidence (if required) that the 70s was a VERY serious time for great music, although so much of it under the radar of the major labels.

Thanks for the recommendations of both Checkmate and Peter Gunn which I listened to last night. Great stuff, and interesting to here the way Conte and Kamuca handle the modal tunes. I know most of the 50s Manne and his Men recordings, and have lots of time for them, but for some reason (probably the availability)don't know much of the 60s stuff. Any recommendations? Son of Gunn? Proper Time? Daktari?!