I don't "get" Miles Davis

[Mace1370]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here (but I've been lurking for a few months now) so I guess I'll give you a quick bit of background. I'm in college and am a huge jazz fan. I mostly listen to trumpet artists because I played the trumpet for about 12 years. Unfortunately I don't have time anymore, but I plan to pick it up again later.

Anyways, on to my question. I have many albums by Miles Davis, such as "Kind of Blue", "Birth of Cool", "Milestones", "'Round about Midnight", "In a Silent Way", "Cookin", and "Seven Steps To Heaven". Recently I have been looking for new albums to add to my collection.

Here are several I looked at/listened to:

1. Sketches of Spain

2. Bitches Brew

3. Someday My Prince Will Come

There were a few others, but I can't remember them. I really enjoy most of the albums I have now, but these new three that I listened to are bizarre. Many have extremely long tracks (which I find boring) or just don't seem to have a lot of substance. However, I know these (or at least Sketches and Brew) are considered to be huge classics.

Could anyone tell me what I should be listening for? Perhaps I'm just into the "straightforward" stuff, but I really didn't care for these at all.

Edited November 13, 2004 by Mace1370

[kenny weir]

Try the other Gil Evans/Miles collaborations - Miles Ahead and Porgy & Bess.

Also: Cannonball Adderley's Somethin' Else, which is often regarded as a Miles session.

Also: Maybe you should try some other trumpeters, such as Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, Kenny Dorham, Freddie Hubbard.

Edited November 13, 2004 by kenny weir

[Rooster_Ties]

Try the other Gil Evans/Miles collaborations - Miles Ahead and Porgy & Bess.

And between those two, I'd go with "Miles Ahead". Both are great, but "Miles Ahead" is my favorite of all the Miles & Gil projects.

And oh, Mace, welcome to the board!!!

Glad you decided to join the party!!!

[Mace1370]

Thanks for the welcome

I already have Porgy and Bess (forgot to mention) and I looked at "Miles Ahead" and it seems like I might like it, but it also seems to have some of the characteristics that I don't like (song with long portions of non melodic lines). It kind of sounds like background music for half the song. Am I interpreting these correctly, or am I just off base?

Kenny,

I have a bunch of stuff by other trumpeters (like the ones you mentioned), but I felt I didn't have enough of Miles. Some of these (like Sketches) are supposed to be really good, which is why I am curious about why I hate them so much. Furthermore, I want to know if I simply don't like the style, or I don't know how to appreciate it.

[Big Wheel]

Which other trumpeters have you been listening to?

[Guy Berger]

Insofar as getting Bitches Brew, it's not a bad idea to think of it as a louder, bigger, messier version of In a Silent Way. There's a lot more to it than that, but I think both albums are coming from the same place. Put the two back to back, and when you listen to BB, think "what am I hearing that I also heard on IaSW? What makes it sound different?" Pay attention to the more conventionally jazzy elements of the album (most obvious on disc 2) -- the brilliant solos by Miles (especially on "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down"), Wayne Shorter and John McLaughlin.

For the first year or so of owning Bitches Brew, it made absolutely no sense to me. A lot of it sounded like random gibberish. But once I started seeing the trees for the forest, the music blew my mind. The album makes so much sense to me these days that it's hard to believe I didn't understand it once.

As far as Sketches -- it isn't my favorite album, but "Solea" is a work of fricking genius. His playing over that snaking groove (with ever changing orchestrations) just blows my mind every time I hear it. (And oddly, I think this piece anticipates some of the stuff on BB. I'm surprised nobody has ever commented on the Gil Evans influence that crept into the later album.)

Guy

Edited November 13, 2004 by Guy Berger

[Jazzmoose]

Mace, in all honesty, while I enjoy Sketches and Bitches Brew, I think of them as oddities of a sort, so in a way, I don't get them either. In other words, it seems that the others involved (Evans on the former, a multitude on the latter) are more the focus than Miles.

I'm puzzled as to Prince being included on your list, though. That one seems to be pure Miles to me. Oh, well...

[MartyJazz]

I'm puzzled as to Prince being included on your list, though. That one seems to be pure Miles to me. Oh, well...

Exactly my thoughts. I've given multiple copies of "Someday My Prince...." to various friends and relatives over the years. It's a terrific album and a wonderful introduction not only to classic Miles but to the beauty and appeal of jazz in general.

[tonym]

Where's Couw when you need him?

Edited November 13, 2004 by tonym

[pryan]

All I have to say is check out the Blackhawk "live" sessions, w/Wynton Kelly, PC, Jimmy Cobb, and Hank Mobley on tenor. This is "straight-ahead", and about as swingin' a rhythm section as you'll find in the history of jazz (seriously!). I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[A Lark Ascending]

I bought Bitches Brew in Dec 1976. It took me until the mid-90s before the penny dropped!

The difficulty I had was the way each track seemed to cling to one or two scales throughout. Listening to 'In a Silent Way' (which I'd not heard until the mid 90s) unlocked it for me.

I don't think it's a record anyone can say 'listen for this' and all will make sense. Just play it every few months. One day it might just click.

'Spanish Key' was the track that I found most approachable. The key shift there gives the music a feeling of structure that seem to have been deliberately avoided on the rest of the record.

Edited November 13, 2004 by Bev Stapleton

[connoisseur series500]

I like most of the stuff with Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams. Why not pick up that box set? Forget the exact title of it offhand. I've got all the individuals. ESP and NEFERTITI are outstanding.

[7/4]

I like most of the stuff with Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams. Why not pick up that box set? Forget the exact title of it offhand. I've got all the individuals. ESP and NEFERTITI are outstanding.

Probably my favorite Miles group.

[Leeway]

I've never been much of a fan of the Miles/Gil Evans collaborations. "Sketches" seems to me to be rather kitschy and pretentious.

As others have noted, "BB" is usually a litmus test as to whether you will like later-Miles. A lot of people never get into it. I did, but it took me a while.

I'd second the Blackhawk set.

[wesbed]

I recommend the Relaxin'/Cookin' Prestige series of Miles sessions. If you like 'straight' Miles you get Miles, straight. I enjoy these sessions as much for Red Garland as for Miles Davis.

Oh, and you get John Coltrane too. How 'bout Philly Joe popping the drums? Yeah, and what the hell, might as well toss in Paul Chambers on the bass.

Mace1370 you are not alone in thinking the Sketches title is not as great as your expectations. I've listened to Sketches of Spain many times. To my ears, the Miles Davis & Gil Evans material is not the best of Miles.

Edited November 13, 2004 by wesbed

[Alexander]

When I first started listening to jazz, Miles was one of the artists I was into. Because I had always "collected" my favorite artists (Bob Dylan, Elvis Costello, Joni Mitchell), I thought I'd do the same with Miles. Well, first of all Miles has a MUCH bigger discography than any artist I had previously collected, which made getting "everything" next to impossible (I have over forty Miles albums today, and still don't have "everything"). Secondly, Miles went through so many stylistic changes over the years that it made listening to different albums difficult for the jazz neophyte (such as I was at the time). "Sketches" and "BB" were two of the albums I didn't "get" in those early days. In fact, I actively hated both. But I can tell you that after years of experience listening to all kinds of jazz (not just Miles) these albums came to be favorites of mine. I agree with Moose that these are somewhat anomalous when compared with the rest of Miles' catalogue. My suggestion is just to keep enjoying what you enjoy and let the rest take care of itself. If you come around on these albums, great. If not, it's cool. One man's meat is another man's poison, as they say.

I also agree that I don't quite "get" your problem with "Someday..." That one is extremely accessable, it seems to me.

I forget...do you have any of Miles's Prestige recordings? If not, I suggest the four "N" albums: "Cookin'," "Relaxin'," "Workin," and "Steamin'." Also, "And the Modern Jazz Giants" and "Bag's Groove" are well worth checking out. You might also enjoy "Birth of the Cool" if you don't have that yet. The RVG is breathtaking...

Edit...I see you do have "Cookin'" and "Birth of the Cool."

Edited November 13, 2004 by Alexander

[couw]

Where's Couw when you need him?

Sorry, I had to go and tell the neighbour to stop playing that Bitches Brew so loudly.

[connoisseur series500]

I recommend the Relaxin'/Cookin' Prestige series of Miles sessions. If you like 'straight' Miles you get Miles, straight. I enjoy these sessions as much for Red Garland as for Miles Davis.

And make sure you get the K-2 versions...

B-)

[frank m]

I'll say it out loud and await the tempest to come. There are now and there have always been better trumpet players than Miles. Irwin Stokes and Nicholas Payton are two of the best. I decided to admit the emperor had no clothes during a Miles concert where he was dressed as a dervish or something, turned his back as usual on the audience and allowed electronics to take center stage, rather than jazz. And when the audience lit up their reefers in appreciation my wife and I walked out, to the superior taunts of the fans nearby, I gave up on Miles and went home to listen to some records by Louis and Warren Vache.

So if theres some Miles that you don't really care for, it isn't your fault. Face it. He recorded a lot of shit. Believe your ears.

[Guy Berger]

So if theres some Miles that you don't really care for, it isn't your fault. Face it. He recorded a lot of shit. Believe your ears.

I actually think it's remarkable how little "shit" he recorded between 1954 and 1975.

Guy

[A Lark Ascending]

'Sketches' is not a favourite of mine either...

...except...

..."Solea" at the end as Guy has already mentioned. I'd throw in the previous track, "Saeta", as well. These two strike me as equal to anything he put on disc.

I don't think its a coincidence that they are also the only two tracks on the album that arn't tiptoeing around arrangements of a classical pieces.

Try playing them alone.

[jazzbo]

Me too Guy.

Sketches was ruined for me for a long time by a roommate who used to totter home, put it on a reverb laden Motorola console stereo he had in the living room, crank it up, put whatever side was on on repeat, and then crash out on the couch snoring for hours. . . .

Took a long time to get over that. When I finally COULD listen to that album years and years later in the cd age I found I really love it. The voicings of the ensembles that Evans does, the texture that he creates in an ebb and flow, and the sometimes whack (to me) way that Miles responds with his statements (with wild tones for the times!) . . . . I think it deserves to stand as a masterpiece.

But man, please, NO REVERB.

[Mace1370]

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice

Big Wheel: " Which other trumpeters have you been listening to?"

Here are the main ones I listen to:

1. Doc Severinsen

2. Arturo Sandoval

3. Chet Baker (personal favorite)

4. Dizzy

5. Louis

6. Harry James

7. Miles Davis

Guy Berger, I've also listened to "In a Silent Way" and that kind of had the same effect on me as Brew and Sketches. It just seems to be random stuff going on without purpose. However, I'm glad that other people have some of the same sentiments that I do regarding this stuff.

Jazzmoose: "I'm puzzled as to Prince being included on your list, though. That one seems to be pure Miles to me. Oh, well..."

I should have clarified that. I haven't listened to all the tracks, just the title one. The reason why I didn't like it was perhaps because it was pretty long (over 9 minutes, I think). While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, I didn't particularly seem to like the other artist's solos, either. Maybe this is one I should give another listen to, though, since like you said it was more straight-forward.

pryan: "All I have to say is check out the Blackhawk "live" sessions, w/Wynton Kelly, PC, Jimmy Cobb, and Hank Mobley on tenor. This is "straight-ahead", and about as swingin' a rhythm section as you'll find in the history of jazz (seriously!). I don't think you'll be disappointed."

Will do, thanks

Leeway: "As others have noted, "BB" is usually a litmus test as to whether you will like later-Miles. A lot of people never get into it. I did, but it took me a while."

Is there a good place to learn about the different eras of Miles' music? I've heard some stuff about it, but nothing in great detail (and I would like to learn more about it).

wesbed: "I recommend the Relaxin'/Cookin' Prestige series of Miles sessions. If you like 'straight' Miles you get Miles, straight. I enjoy these sessions as much for Red Garland as for Miles Davis."

I already have Cookin' and I like it a lot and was planning on picking up Relaxin' eventually.

connoisseur: " And make sure you get the K-2 versions..."

What are the K-2 versions?

frank: "I'll say it out loud and await the tempest to come. There are now and there have always been better trumpet players than Miles. Irwin Stokes and Nicholas Payton are two of the best."

I actually got to see Payton live at the Reno jazz festival several years ago. He was amazing.

Bev: ".."Solea" at the end as Guy has already mentioned. I'd throw in the previous track, "Saeta", as well. These two strike me as equal to anything he put on disc. I don't think its a coincidence that they are also the only two tracks on the album that arn't tiptoeing around arrangements of a classical pieces. Try playing them alone."

I did. I felt pretty much the same way about them as I felt about the others. Perhaps I just need to listen to them a few more times.

[A Lark Ascending]

My advice would be that if this music isn't connecting, leave it alone. The fact that a recording or set of recordings is highly regarded doesn't mean everyone has to like it.

The chances are that at some point you'll hear the music in a different context, when you're not expecting it and something will click. Come back to it then.

If it doesn't, so what? There's so much wonderful music out there you'll never be without something that makes sense.

[Big Wheel]

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice

Big Wheel: " Which other trumpeters have you been listening to?"

Here are the main ones I listen to:

1. Doc Severinsen

2. Arturo Sandoval

3. Chet Baker (personal favorite)

4. Dizzy

5. Louis

6. Harry James

7. Miles Davis

Ok then. It looks like you generally are listening to people who focused on being brilliant trumpet players rather than producing different textures and grooves the way Miles attempted to do on Sketches of Spain and Bitches Brew. Obviously there are some exceptions to this generalization (Dizzy's Perceptions comes to mind for example) but in general the artists you are listening to didn't experiment in the same way Miles did. My recommendation, then, is to listen for different things in Miles's music. Don't dwell on whether or not his range is crappy, or he's cracking notes, or whether the music swings. This music does not swing in the same way most of the other things you are listening to does. Instead, listen for the emotion in the music--in the parts of Solea where the trumpet sounds like Miles is almost crying, or in the parts of "Bitches Brew" where the echoplexed trumpet makes him sound so vulnerable. Listen to the rest of the bands, too. Don't just focus your ear on Miles--these works are grand collaborations between musical geniuses, not just trumpet features. And if you feel like it, spend some cash on some 20th century classical music to get a better feel for where Miles is coming from on these. As well as some of the other '60s players--Don Cherry, Booker Little, Bill Dixon, and so on. And if you still don't get it, then listen to Bev's recommendation.