Aggie87 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I agree it is a great post, Jim. I'm still trying to wrap my head around "LEE'S DEAD, & FREDDIE DON'T PLAY NO MORE!" and figure out what Wynton was really saying, and how that justifies (perhaps in his head, anyway) the music he produces. Wynton is more famous for being famous, than for anything he's created. Sort of a jazz Britney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 To be honest, of what I have heard of the Marsalis Brothers, Branford seems more interesting. Trio Jeepy is a pretty sweet album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 (edited) it is important, in my opinion, to separate the political objections to Wynton from the musical objections. Honestly I have not listened to much, mostly because I find him and Crouch so personally damned annoying. I have heard some of his playing on the local public station blind, that was quite good - I mean solos. I also heard, one night, a big band piece on public radio; I had no idea who it was, but I kept thinking, this is awful, pretensious, cloying, wanna-bee Ellington - and, guess who? Wynton. The problem is, if he did not have all this poliitical baggage, we would probably regard him with more musical respect - on the other hand, he's making millions, so he does not give a shi* - Edited February 10, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I said in another post on the JC that if Wynton was not such a jerk, I would never have been as judgemental. I enjoy a lot of musicians despite their weak points. And in all other cases focus on what I like, not what I don't like. I have taken personal affront with him because of his attempts to drive his base away from musicians I really love. He is the only musician I know of alive who has spent considerable public time bashing other musicians, even on PBS. No other musician I know of has done this. Wynton is his own worst enemy. But then again, I think he revels in this kind of controversey. And maybe this is all more about his own personal problems, and nothing to do with jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rostasi Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I agree it is a great post, Jim. I'm still trying to wrap my head around "LEE'S DEAD, & FREDDIE DON'T PLAY NO MORE!" and figure out what Wynton was really saying, and how that justifies (perhaps in his head, anyway) the music he produces. Wynton is more famous for being famous, than for anything he's created. Sort of a jazz Britney. yes, great post Jim and to the point of the real matter! WM doesn't have to justify anything (in his head as you say Aggie) and statements like that are a surefire way to deflect from the real issue of playing and one's worth. Sad really... --- Now playing: WKCR - Columbia University Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted February 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 It is patently ridiculous to bring race into one's evaluation of an artist, and to assert that adverse criticism of his/her artistic ability is race-based while praise is not. This is not to say that ignorance can't breed such bias--it can and does, but artistic shortcoming and arrogance are not restricted to any particular race. Kenny G's music is desirable to some ears and detestable to others, and nobody likes or dislikes it because he is Jewish. To base one's artistic judgment on the man's ancestry is to not have made an artistic judgment. I have not seen any indication that race has played a role in criticism of WM's work or personality on this or any other board that I frequent. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for some of his chronic supporters. They need to face the fact that WM, like all other artists, appeals to some and not to others, and that it is possible to praise or find fault with a performer's work without casting objectivity to the wind. It is a comfort to note that the overwhelming majority of artists can be discussed--pro and con--without personal insults or other venom. There are times when I would rather listen to my vacuum cleaner than to certain Albert Ayler recordings, but that is not always the case. So what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rostasi Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 My vacuum cleaner sucks. Ayler doesn't... --- Now playing: WKCR - Columbia University Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 And especially to hurl such comments at Jazz enthusiasts! In jazz, all my favorite artists ARE black. Not that I like them because they are black. It just happens to be that all my favorites in jazz are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 "Kenny G's music is desirable to some ears and detestable to others, and nobody likes or dislikes it because he is Jewish. " Actually I am a little embarrassed that this guy is Jewish - makes us all look bad - but seriously folks, I think one of the things that has made Wynton's public utterances so annoying is the influence of Crouch - I have noticed that he often responds with that awful Crouchian syntax, bad metaphors, poor grammar, sadly unbalanced coloquialisms that come out sounding like the phrasing of the truly uneducated - I feel like his lips are moving but that Crouch is talking - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catesta Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I agree it is a great post, Jim. Yes indeed. Your avatar ain't bad either. B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Surely Crouch is both personally and symbolically the worst thing that ever happened to Wynton M. Without all that fawning WM would just be another trumpet player who people could either enjoy or not. I've certainly enjoyed some of his work in the past, even if he was never my #1 fav, but I just got tired of wading through the hype to get to the music and rarely make the effort any more. I have to wonder what Ellis M thinks, in his heart of hearts, about all this. One difference between WM and Oprah, Rice and Powell is that their positions of prominence don't depend as WM's does on a self-appointed role as an interpreter of 'blackness'. See, try as I might, it's hard to even talk about this shit without getting sucked into some sort of nastiness... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 (edited) I'll bet Ellis is quite pleased and very proud - what was that old saying about the leaf not falling far from the tree... (I think I have this wrong but you get the idea) Edited February 10, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Rod can tell you about Ellis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 "Kenny G's music is desirable to some ears and detestable to others, and nobody likes or dislikes it because he is Jewish. " Actually I am a little embarrassed that this guy is Jewish - makes us all look bad - Kenny G's Jewish? I didn't know that... What happened? Did the mohel slip up and take too big a mouthful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 What I don't understand is why people keep engaging Rob in the Wynton debate. The arguments for/against Wynton are so tired. I think most of us would agree that there are more interesting things than Wynton to discuss when it comes to jazz. If you don't like Wynton, get over it and talk about something else. If Wynton-lovers have nothing else to talk about (and it doesn't seem like Rob has much else to talk about), they'll either keep to themselves or eventually go away. This is still true after three pages of talk about Marsalis talk, still nothing new, still nothing but "I agree with me" kind of stuff, just no one taking up the Marsalis banner. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Kenny G's Jewish? I didn't know that... I bet that won't make the Beastie Boys Hanakah song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 What I don't understand is why people keep engaging Rob in the Wynton debate. The arguments for/against Wynton are so tired. I think most of us would agree that there are more interesting things than Wynton to discuss when it comes to jazz. If you don't like Wynton, get over it and talk about something else. If Wynton-lovers have nothing else to talk about (and it doesn't seem like Rob has much else to talk about), they'll either keep to themselves or eventually go away. This is still true after three pages of talk about Marsalis talk, still nothing new, still nothing but "I agree with me" kind of stuff, just no one taking up the Marsalis banner. ? Damen has the uncanny ability to draw you in with his comments. You read his stuff, get outraged and feel the need to vent. You are absolutely right about this. I was hoping to have some real exchange and I should know better. But my ego gets the best of me. And my sense of outrage causes me to post. But I AM totally done with Damen. He won't be given any more chances and will remain on ignore for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Myself, I chimed in because this matter falls in line w/my on-gig incidents. They left a really bad taste in my mind. So I'm purging a little bit. Hope that's ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catesta Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 So I'm purging a little bit. Hope that's ok. I'll have to think about that for a bit. The answer will be in my afternoon report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 What I don't understand is why people keep engaging Rob in the Wynton debate. The arguments for/against Wynton are so tired. I think most of us would agree that there are more interesting things than Wynton to discuss when it comes to jazz. If you don't like Wynton, get over it and talk about something else. If Wynton-lovers have nothing else to talk about (and it doesn't seem like Rob has much else to talk about), they'll either keep to themselves or eventually go away. This is still true after three pages of talk about Marsalis talk, still nothing new, still nothing but "I agree with me" kind of stuff, just no one taking up the Marsalis banner. ? Damen has the uncanny ability to draw you in with his comments. You read his stuff, get outraged and feel the need to vent. You are absolutely right about this. I was hoping to have some real exchange and I should know better. But my ego gets the best of me. And my sense of outrage causes me to post. But I AM totally done with Damen. He won't be given any more chances and will remain on ignore for good. Yeah, I can see how it can happen -- I don't mean to be too judgemental. Outrage is a funny emotion--I often wonder at myself--what inspires outrage and what inspires my to shrug and think "s/he can believe whatever the hell s/he wants to." Though that JC thread *started* out at a pretty low level. It actually kind of got better as it went along, surprisingly enough. Has anyone done a FAQ where every possible permutation of these arguments is played out? Then we could start srguing at some advanced, abtruse level. Like a championship checkers game, where they skip you past all the preliminaries and hand you an intriguing position well into the game. I wonder if, in addition to wishing death to WM, we ought also to wish that all of his fans might be gathered up into concentration camps where they might be put to forced labor in the interests of true art? Perhaps they could prepare breakfast for real musicians who would never dream of saying something stupid. --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 That would be cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 (edited) Marsalis' accusation that his detractors dislike him because of his race is patently absurd - I very much doubt that the Pulitzer Committee that awarded him the prize for that piece of dreck that is Blood On The Fields was made up entirely of African-American judges. In addition to making terrible music, the guy is a major-league asshole. What's there to like? Bertrand. Edited February 15, 2005 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 hm....Kenny G...jews... death camps...this thread has taken an odd turn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maren Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 (edited) To be honest, of what I have heard of the Marsalis Brothers, Branford seems more interesting. Trio Jeepy is a pretty sweet album. Agree, and so do many others. Plus, as a friend of mine who's known them both since college says: "Branford was never an asshole." EDIT: Note to self -- read through the whole thread before posting! Look what Bertrand already said! In addition to making terrible music, the guy is a major-league asshole. Edited February 10, 2005 by maren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Marsalis' accusation that his detractors dislike him because of his race is patently absurd - I very much doubt that the Pulitzer Committe that awarded him the prize for that piece of dreck that is Blood On The Fields was made up entirely of African-American judges. In addition to making terrible music, the guy is a major-league asshole. What's there to like? Bertrand. I would really be shocked if any anglo-american who loves jazz is a racist. I just can't picture jazz being played at Klan rallies. I don't have any personal issues with Wynton, but I prefer Branford's music. I'm glad you post here also, sonic1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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