Baseball Steroid Thread

[Adam]

Actually they didn't forgive the strike very quickly at all, it took McGuire and Sosa's steroid-aided "chase" to generate fan excitement again, four years later. There's no doubt that everyone in baseball is equally to blame for the situation. No one wanted to look too closely at the perverse results that were seen during the steroids era - like athletes in their late 30s and 40s performing better than they ever had previously, or a singles hitter like Sosa turning into Babe Ruth.

Nevertheless, I think fans can absolutely reject the accomplishments that were previously celebrated - if they looked at these stars and logically suspected they were juicing but couldn't fairly draw conclusions without proof. That proof is here, and I think everyone is entitled to reject Clemens, Bonds, McGuire, the whole lot of them. They cheated and just because it made baseball "more exciting" (which I think is a total crock of shit), it doesn't change that fact.

On the first point, that is what I meant; sorry for erring on the chronology. It took the steroid era for fans to forgive the strike. In other words, the steroid era made everyone happy again - fans, owners (with more fans = more $), players (more fans = more $), press, etc.

On teh second point, sure, fans can reject the accomplishments, but what does that really matter? The seasons are done, we know the stats.

[Quincy]

What are people going to do when they decide to acknowledge that virtually every pro football player is on some sort of steroid or other drug?

Oh, wait, I think people don't really care.

So why do they care about baseball?

Baseball attracts the literature crowd who will wax poetic about the connection between fathers & sons, how the game is the fabric of America, blah blah blah. It was "Catcher In The Rye," not "Quarterback." People care more about its history & the numbers attached, as the individual stands out more in baseball. Aside from the pitcher vs. batter confrontation, the faces aren't hidden under helmets & face masks.

Football is more about mighty gladiators and the field generals who direct them. When you throw someone to the lions you expect him to do whatever is necessary to survive. Lest I start ripping off George Carlin's old routine here, I think there's also the illusion that it would be much easier to get off the couch and play pro baseball, where only the more delusional fan thinks he could play in the NFL.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Quincy

[GA Russell]

It was "Catcher In The Rye," not "Quarterback."

Quincy, it's been forty years since I read Cather in the Rye, but as I recall Holden daydreamed about catching a girl falling in a rye field. Baseball wasn't a part of it.

[Larry Kart]

But have you read "Catheter in the Rye"?

[Larry Kart]

Funny book -- had me pissing all over myself.

[Chuck Nessa]

Not an image to take to bed tonight.

[Quincy]

It was "Catcher In The Rye," not "Quarterback."

Quincy, it's been forty years since I read Cather in the Rye, but as I recall Holden daydreamed about catching a girl falling in a rye field. Baseball wasn't a part of it.

Righto. I should have inserted a in there.

Edited December 17, 2007 by Quincy

[Matthew]

You bunch of phonies..

[Jazzmoose]

I thought he was talking about "Catch Her in the Eye", the one about the baseball player with bad depth perception...

[Free For All]

"Catch Her in the Eye"

Good porn title.

[papsrus]

I think it's actually titled "Your Catcher is High" ....

[Quincy]

Did you know the original title was "Tools Of Ignorance In The Rye"...

[T.D.]

"Catch Her in the Eye"

Good porn title.

Exactly what I was going to say, but my PC antenna suppressed the post...

[Free For All]

"Catch Her in the Eye"

Good porn title.

Exactly what I was going to say, but my PC antenna suppressed the post...

I had my PC antenna surgically removed, it was an outpatient procedure performed by Dr. Allen Lowe.

[Dan Gould]

"Catch Her in the Eye"

Good porn title.

Exactly what I was going to say, but my PC antenna suppressed the post...

I had my PC antenna surgically removed, it was an outpatient procedure performed by Dr. Allen Lowe.

[Tim McG]

Seems that if someone was falsely accused, they would file a libel suit. In fact MLB agreed to indemnify Mitchell if this does in fact occur.

Should be interesting to see how many suits we see ...

Not exactly.

The tabloids are just full of lies, half-truths and outright slander.

People do not sue because it is at the very least an incredibily difficult thing to prove and at most, expensive.

Lawsuits or not, lies stand for truth in this country on a regular basis.

There is a difference in severity between tabloid trash and the accusations that are being directed towards the ballplayers.

If I were Clemens and I were innocent and I would be livid right now. He obviously has the resources to go after Mitchell et al (as do others) and with MLB agreeing to indemnify Mitchell, there are plenty of deep pockets. Even if you don't have the cash, there are plenty of attorneys who would take this on.

If you were clean, why wouldn't you go after these guys?

I agree with this. There is a world of difference between tabloids and a considered investigative report.

And so, if these fine athletes have been wrongly accused, let them file suit to restore their good names. ... We may be waiting awhile.

And btw, put yourself in the shoes of a "clean" athlete. How do you think he/she feels about cheaters gaining an advantage, both on the field and in contract negotiations?

Having said that, an interesting letter to the ed in today's NYTimes points out that there are legitimate uses for both steroids and HGH. Prescribed under the supervision of a doctor, they can aid healing, etc. ... Maybe baseball and other pro sports shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water here and consider whether "regulating" the use of these substances is the more reasonable approach. ... Don't know, just something to consider.

I disagree.

Besmerching ones image in the public eye is as insidious as any baldfaced lie accepted as truth. What does it matter if the tabloids or the Mitchell Report perpetrate it? Slander is slander and it is still pass off as fact in this country and on a wholesale basis.

The McCarthy Era speaks volumes on this point.

[papsrus]

I disagree.

Besmerching ones image in the public eye is as insidious as any baldfaced lie accepted as truth. What does it matter if the tabloids or the Mitchell Report perpetrate it? Slander is slander and it is still pass off as fact in this country and on a wholesale basis.

The McCarthy Era speaks volumes on this point.

Ah, but "slander" is a legal term, and has to be proven in a court of law, yes? And so if anyone in this report believes he has been slandered, I would think they'd be running to the courthouse to clear their good name (as opposed to offering semi-apologies/excuses ... cough, Pettitte, cough).

I'm not sure -- beyond the Bonds thing -- why you feel so strongly that this whole steroid/HGH mess is a bunch of lies, or some huge conspiracy. At a certain point, the body of evidence has to persuade you that something is going on, no?

You're entitled to your opinion, but ... Palmiero, McGwire, Sosa. Those three were pretty much exposed during the hearings a couple of years ago. Any doubts about them? Palmiero was flat out nailed. McGwire looked like a lying fool. And Sosa forgot how to speak English and left the country for a year.

And Canseco, of course, admitted to using. Bonds is up on federal charges. If he's convicted, will that convince you that there's something amiss here? Or will that just reinforce the notion that it's all a witch hunt with no evidence at all?

[Aggie87]

Fernando Vina has also come out and confessed to using HGH.

I think the smart ones are going to admit their mistakes, and will be more readily forgiven by the public. It's the egotistical Bonds and Clemens and others who will continue to deny their transgressions who will suffer in the court of public opinion.

[Aggie87]

Gary Bennett has confessed to using HGH.

[Aggie87]

Paul Byrd has confessed to using HGH.

[Chuck Nessa]

You can't imagine how happy I am these guys 'fessed up.

[Dan Gould]

And now, the guy that everyone said was "unfairly" identified because one person claimed that he told him he had used steroids, Brian Roberts, 'fessed up, too.

And the admission says he used them once, the report said that he had stated that he used them "once or twice".

Aggie is right, the people who deny deny deny will get their just rewards in the end. But less than a week after it was released, the Mitchell Report is looking more and more accurate. Its hardly complete, and there may be an unfair bias toward the Mets and Yankees because of the location of the two main sources, but its clear that the sources were honest.

Clemens needs to come clean but then again he's been a congenital liar for a long time so why change now?

[Quincy]

And now, the guy that everyone said was "unfairly" identified because one person claimed that he told him he had used steroids, Brian Roberts, 'fessed up, too.

So it wasn't the red contacts that made him hit the ball farther? Guess I'd better take mine out...

[Tim McG]

I disagree.

Besmerching ones image in the public eye is as insidious as any baldfaced lie accepted as truth. What does it matter if the tabloids or the Mitchell Report perpetrate it? Slander is slander and it is still pass off as fact in this country and on a wholesale basis.

The McCarthy Era speaks volumes on this point.

Ah, but "slander" is a legal term, and has to be proven in a court of law, yes? And so if anyone in this report believes he has been slandered, I would think they'd be running to the courthouse to clear their good name (as opposed to offering semi-apologies/excuses ... cough, Pettitte, cough).

I'm not sure -- beyond the Bonds thing -- why you feel so strongly that this whole steroid/HGH mess is a bunch of lies, or some huge conspiracy. At a certain point, the body of evidence has to persuade you that something is going on, no?

You're entitled to your opinion, but ... Palmiero, McGwire, Sosa. Those three were pretty much exposed during the hearings a couple of years ago. Any doubts about them? Palmiero was flat out nailed. McGwire looked like a lying fool. And Sosa forgot how to speak English and left the country for a year.

And Canseco, of course, admitted to using. Bonds is up on federal charges. If he's convicted, will that convince you that there's something amiss here? Or will that just reinforce the notion that it's all a witch hunt with no evidence at all?

I never said the steroid issue was a bunch of lies.

I was reacting to the comment that if these are lies, why don't the ballplayers sue.

My reasons are what followed.

Clearly, though, speculation rules the roost here. And that isn't proof.

[Jazzmoose]

Clearly, though, speculation rules the roost here. And that isn't proof.

Well, this is an internet bulletin board rather than a court of law, you know...