The Best of Andrew Hill: The Blue Note Years

[Rooster_Ties]

I always thought this series was pretty good, as one or two CD introduction(s) to each artist. They were how I first heard many of the tunes represented on these discs. And there are some others (like the recent one of Bobby Hutcherson's material) which have different looking covers, but the idea is the same.

So, let's propose a track-listing for a 65-70 minute long compilation of Andrew Hill's best and most 'accessable' tunes on Blue Note. (Well, 'accessable' for Andrew Hill anyway.) Here are the rules...

Not more than 2 tunes (or 3 tops) from any one date/session/album, and the tunes should be the ones that people have a decent chance of being able to hum the head to - after a couple dozen listens. Not every session needs to be represented, but the compilation should provide a good overview and introduction to Hill's work on BN.

I know, I know... ...the idea of an Andrew Hill compilation is very counter-intuitive, probably on at least a couple different levels. 1) Most of Hill's BN albums are more like concept-albums than most other Blue Note artists (i.e. more similar to "All Seeing Eye" than a random Horace Silver album); and 2) much of Hill's output just doesn't lend itself to being all mixed around, with different cuts from different albums.

Still, I think this could be fun - because it will force us to identify which of Hill's tunes are the strongest (in the compositional sense) in terms of the tunes themselves, and not as much based on the individual performance of Hill's tunes (based pimarily on the quality of the solos).

To the best of my knowledge, no Andrew Hill tunes are typically considered being anything close to being "standards", not even in the sense that most of the tunes on "The Best of Joe Henderson: The Blue Note Years" are arguably many of Joe's strongest compositions, many bordering on 'standard' status (at least in 'modern' terms). I really think we can do justice to a Hill compilation, and in the process, argue for a fair number of Hill tunes as being worthy of being played by others.

What tunes would you include??? (And please identify which album they come from - to save us all from having to look them up ourselves) Once we have a good list of tunes, then we can pick a final track listing, and sequence the thing. Then AfricaBrass or Couw (or anybody, really) can whip-up a Hill CD cover (similar to the series above), and those of us that want a Hill comp of our own can burn one.

( I'd like to do this, because I have a hunch that mixing up the Hill catalog, and playing the best of it, back to back - out of context - might reveal some interesting things about Hill's concepts and about his playing, that we/I might not otherwise notice. Seriously. Well, and also it'd be good to have for the car. )

Again, no Hill BN session is off limits (so even the two from the 80's are fair game, I suppose), but then again, not every date needs to be represented either. (For instance, Wayne Shorter's last three BN albums are not represented on his "Best of..." CD, nor is "All Seeing Eye".) For instance, I for one will be hard-pressed to suggest anything from the Hill date with Sam Rivers (it's on the last CD on the Mosaic). But who knows, perhaps I'm forgetting a tune from it that just might fit (though I doubt it.)

I guess the easiest question in all this is this: What are your favorite Andrew Hill tunes???

[.:.impossible]

I think Black Monday from ANDREW! could definitely come into its own as a modern standard. I nominate Black Monday be included in your Best of collection. My second recommendation will be Ghetto Lights from the Bobby Hutcherson album DIALOGUE.

Both are great examples of an Andrew Hill composition with a memorable head. I will have to dig into the CD shelves for more recommendations. For now, off the top of my head, these two I nominate.

P.S. I'm sure we can come up with a better cover than these Time Life Series!

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Gotta be one of those double sets like the recent Shorter and Gordon...just so you could put the Rumproller in there. So I guess that opens up disc two to his compositions done with other folks.

[RDK]

I'll see your "Ghetto Lights" and raise you "Wailing Wall" from "Smoke Stack." Add "Alfred" from "Judgement" as well.

I have to say that this comp of "accessible" Andrew Hill music would be perfect for me (especially if I didn't already have the Mosaic set). He's one of those artists who took me a long time to appreciate - and I'm still not really into "Point of Departure" all that much.

"Grass Roots" (the title track) would also be a good addition to the comp. It's too bad that Hill didn't actually play on "Rumproller" - now *that's* the kinda boogaloo that could really suck the unsuspecting neophytes into Hill's world.

[RDK]

I see the golden-armed man beat me to "Rumproller!"

[Rooster_Ties]

I don't know about including "The Rumproller".

I'll have to give it another listen. If Hill were on the date, I'd probably say yes, it's open for consideration. But he's not. And to my ears (although I haven't heard it in 6 months), there's little to the tune that has much of Hill's imprint on it.

But I'll listen again, and see what I think...

[Rooster_Ties]

Oh, and let's keep it to one disc (heck, we've got 79 minutes to fill). I'm afraid that if we go to two discs, we'll have to include quite a bit of material that would be even less accessable for people to get their ears around.

The point of this comp is to hone in on the best tunes that Hill wrote, looking at them slightly from a more 'conventional' jazz standpoint. In other words, let's keep it to the tunes that people might have half a chance of learning to hum the head to in relatively short order.

( Not that I don't like the more 'out' Hill, cuz I do. Lordy, lordy, do I ever love that kind of Hill. But I want to focus on the tunes that in a more perfect world, might have had 1/4 of a chance of getting in The Real Book. )

Edited October 11, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[vibes]

Another vote for "Black Monday" here. "Siete Ocho" and "Flea Flop" (Judgment) would also be on my list. I've really been enjoying the title track from "Passing Ships," so add that too. Add the title track from "Lift Every Voice." "Wailing Wall," "Refuge," and "Dedication" would also be on my list. There's a lot of great material to choose from, to be sure...and I haven't even listed anything from "Black Fire," "Cosmos," "Compulsion" or "Involution."

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, I thought about the "one disc" vs. "two discs" idea some more, and also about the earlier 1963-66 material (meaning everything that was on the Mosaic) vs. the later 67-70 material (meaning "Grass Roots", "Dance With Death", "Passing Ships", "Lift Every Voice", and the 2nd LP of "One For One").

Part of me wants to mix it all up, with the earlier, more challenging material side-by-side with the later, more accessable material.

OR, I suppose we could do two Hill compilations --- one of the 1963-66 material, and a 2nd volume of only the 1967-70 material. (And as much as I might like to argue otherwise, that would probably make more sense.)

I guess more importantly --- just keep suggesting tunes, and maybe we'll let the number of tunes that are suggested (and the total time needed for them) help suggest if there should be two volumes, or just one.

Edited October 10, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, here's the start of my take on what possibly to include. Here are some suggestions from Hill's first four albums (and fully half of the Mosaic box):

from "Black Fire" (1963): "Pumpkin" and "Back Fire" (both with Joe), and possibly also "Subterfuge" (which is trio-only, omit Joe). (I had forgotten how funky "Subterfuge" was!!! --> in it's own weird way. B) )

from "Smokestack" (1963): definitely "Not So" - which I think is the strongest tune on the disc. And maybe "Wailing Wall", but I'm not totally convinced. I like the performance, but it's the 'performance' that really makes it what it is, and not really the tune itself as much -- as least that's my take. (Honorable mention to the title track "Smokestack" - although I think it may not be strong enough to suggest for the compilation.) [Full disclosure: I've never gotten very deeply into this album all that much. I 'like' it, but don't 'love' it -- if you know what I mean.]

from "Judgement!" (1964): "Siete Ocho" and "Yokada, Yokada" for sure (IMHO). Possibly also "Judgment" maybe? - (but I'm not as sure).

from "Point of Departure" (1964): possibly "Refuge" and/or "Flight 19" and/or "Spectrum". (Probably not all three.) I'll have to listen to them some more to really pick out the best tune (or tunes). [Note: This is one of those albums that really works best as a full album experience, so perhaps only one tune would be appropriate to pick?]

Also, realize, I was mostly paying attention to the first 60 seconds of each tune -- in terms of quickly identifying the head (and remembering/recognizing the tune, if possible). There may well be a few of these tracks that go a little too far 'out' to include. (I'll certainly listen to them all-the-way-through at sometime in the near future.)

And an overall reaction: 1) God damn this is some pretty amazing music!!!!!... ...and 2) I sure don't know this music nearly as well as I should!!!!!

Edited October 10, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Jazzdog]

Yeah, I am another who dosen't know this music as well as I might. I have been impartial to PoD for some time, but hes always been pretty consistent for me. the only one that never really grabbed me was Smokestack, I dont think we are the only two people who feel this way. The album just needs a horn, or maybe even Bobby Hutcherson.

That being said, I have always loved the Catta, as was mentioned in the other thread. The tune is very catchy and maintains a very steady pace throught, unlike some of his other more mainstream cuts like the Rumproller or Soul Special. I am all for the mixing it up idea, but to be brutally honest, I would rather hear some cuts from the Mosaic box, and the like...stuff that many of us who dont have the box or the Japan cd's have never heard before.

[Jim Dye]

I'm going to have to spin some sides today and think this one over. Great thread, Rooster! I have to say that "Land Of Nod" would be one of my choices from Black Fire. It's quirky (what Andrew Hill tune isn't!) yet very memorable and acessible to these ears!

Also, I agree that "Catta" and "Siete Ocho" are shoe-ins.

[relyles]

Last year I made myself a two disc Andrew Hill compilation covering the period 1955 - 1965 that included selections from recordings in my collection featuring Hill including Hill as a sideman as well as a leader. Excluding the non Blue Note and sideman appearances, these are the tunes I included on the compilation.

Land of Nod - Black Fire

Ode To Von - Smokestack

Reconciliation - Judgment

Dedication - Point of Departure

Symmetry - Andrew

Pax - One For One

Limbo - Compulsion

Desire - Sam Rivers - Involution (its really a Hill Lead date)

MC - Grass Roots

Bayou Red - Grass Roots

Fish 'N Rice - Dance With Death

Lift Every Voice - Lift Every Voice

Illusion - One For One

Diddy Wah - One For One

Such it Is - Lift Every Voice

FYI, the reason a couple of recordings have more than selection is because recordings like the reissues of Grass Roots have more than one recording session on them. If I were making the compilation today I might make a couple of changes - such as "Dedication", but for the most part these are some of my favorite Andrew Hill Blue Note tracks. I suppose if I was making it today I would also have to find a way to include something from Passing Ships.

Edited October 10, 2003 by relyles

[Joe]

I have to say that "Land Of Nod" would be one of my choices from Black Fire.

Me too. Also "The Griots" from ANDREW!!!

[Rooster_Ties]

Thought about this some more as I was waking up this morning -- and we definitely need 2 CD's worth of material. When considering Hill's entire BN output (only between 1963 and 1970) there are a total of 16 sessions, and about 15 albums worth of material -- that have been released to date.

Thats a TON of music (probably 13 or 14 hours of music), so I now think we're totally justified in probably doing a 2 CD "Best of..." set.

Gotta run. Can't wait to do some more listening, and suggest some more tunes!!!!

[couw]

I'm sure (& hope) others will come up with better ones, but this cover making thing needs to be kicked off if RT wants to get this on the market before Christmass

Edited October 10, 2003 by couw

[Eric]

What about including the two 80s lps in the scope? Certainly similar in terms of "look and feel" ...

Eric

[Rooster_Ties]

What about including the two 80s lps in the scope? Certainly similar in terms of "look and feel" ...

Eric

Perhaps. But my memory is that Hill's two later BN dates (from '89 and '90) are somewhat different (or at least different enough) that they might stick out - compared to his classic 1963-70 material. But if people want to suggest specific tunes, by all means give them a mention.

[mikeweil]

OR, I suppose we could do two Hill compilations --- one of the 1963-66 material, and a 2nd volume of only the 1967-70 material.  (And as much as I might like to argue otherwise, that would probably make more sense.)

That seems the best way to me.

I'd include the Grass Roots title tune, and Diddy Wah from the One For One twofer - these actually were the tunes that made Hill accessible for me, my personal admission ticket the musical world of Andrew Hill. Perhaps a track from the strings session, Poinsettia would be nice.

On vol.1, a track from the Mobley session with Hill, that's as close as we will get to mainstream hardbop.

John, could you make a Vol.1 and Vol.2 - perhaps with different photos - for the two albums?

Edited October 10, 2003 by mikeweil

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, here are my thoughts on the rest of the Mosaic set...

from "Andrew!!!" (1964): Probably "The Groits" (which doesn't have Gilmore on it), and "Black Monday" (which does have Gimore on it). The rest are a bit on the 'out' side and/or not quite 'tuneful' enough (IMHO).

from the first LP of "One For One" (1965): Difficult to know what to choose from this session. "Pax" was 'mainstream' enough to be included on the 4-CD Joe Henderson box that BN put out a few years ago, so perhaps it would be good to include. "Calliope" is a pretty strong tune too. Oh man, we gotta include "Erato" - since that's the tune that Jason Moran based his series of "Gangsterism" variations on. B) (FYI, "Erato" is a trio-only tune, omit horns.) I'll have to listen to all of this session again, to get a better idea of what tunes really would work best on a comp. In one sense, they're all good tunes - but they're all also a fairly complicated too.

from "Compulsion" (1965): Just like "Point Of Departure", this one is really a great album made up of great performances -- but the tunes are perhaps less important than the overall effect. I would suggest that "Limbo" is probably the only tune that could survive without the rest of the album.

From "Involution" (1966): "Pain" is very Monkish (and omits Rivers), but also has a nearly 90-second bass solo (just bass and drums) and it starts barely 30 seconds into the tune. So, I guess I'm on the fence about "Pain" - but the tune itself is quite strong, and it is barely 4 minutes long, so that's probably an OK thing to have on a compilation, maybe. "Desire" isn't the most accessible tune ever, but is probably as approachable as any of the tunes that include Rivers (from this session). "Lust" omits Rivers (and feels like a solo-piano piece nearly), but is simply a drop-dead gorgeous tune - as pretty as anything Hill's ever written. [A rubato ballad like "Lust" would normally kill the typical 'up' mood of most compilations like this, but maybe it could serve well as the last tune on one of the CD's, meaning as the closer for one of the discs.]

Man, this is fun!!!

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, the next batch of Hill material (67-70) is going to be more difficult for me to figure out, for a couple reasons...

1.) Nearly all of it is more 'accessible' - so way more of the tunes are 'in play' - so to speak. (As opposed to the 63-66 material, where every tune is more difficult, so the 'tuneful' ones really stick out more obviously.

2.) I knew exactly where my Hill Mosaic discs were. I'm not so sure I can immediately put my hands on all my other Hill discs (and burns of the two that have only been released on LP) --- cuz so many of my discs are strewn all over the place, in piles here in the computer room, and many in boxes in the spare bedroom, and some in the main bedroom, and some downstairs, and a few in a small pile in the kitchen...

[sidewinder]

The 'Best of Blue Note' compilation (not the later set mentioned above) would have to start exactly the same way as the Mosaic ie' 'Land of Nod', then possibly 'Siete Ocho', 'Alfred', '30 Pier Avenue', maybe 'Our Thing','Flight 19','Dedication', 'Pax', 'Compulsion', 'The Groits', 'One For One', (something from 'Passing Ships') and 'Pinnacle' from 'Eternal Spirit'.

Edited October 11, 2003 by sidewinder

[Rooster_Ties]

Only had time to list to "Passing Ship" today, so here goes...

from "Passing Ships" (1969): "Plantation Bag" has a great groove to it, and the head is pretty darn cool too - especially in the way that it mostly has straight eighth notes (and not swung) [much like the title track off "Grass Roots"] -- and I think "Plantation Bag" has a very 'made in 1969' feel to it, with those backbeats from Lenny White. Everybody seems to like "The Brown Queen" as their favorite on the disc, and I'll admit to really liking the tune too. But I think "Cascade" is really great too - with the most 'big band'-ish writing on the whole disc (perhaps) -- and it sounds the most like a 17-piece band (when it's really only nine). The whole disc is amazing, but those are probably the three strongest tunes, IMHO.

I'll get to the other 1967-70 material in short order, sometime tomorrow or Monday.

[Rooster_Ties]

Up for more input. Haven't had the chance to listen to any more of the 67-70 material yet, but plan to try to sneak some in late tonight, or tomorrow...

[couw]

anyone have nice pics of andrew from the era?

Mike wants two different covers...