ghost of miles

CTI reissues: box-set, 1971 concert, single titles

267 posts in this topic

Apologies if posted elsewhere:

CTI reissues coming

I've been wanting to hear Ron Carter's ALL BLUES for quite awhile, after getting a strong rec for it from a friend a few years ago. The Hollywood Palladium concert sounds promising as well.

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Wow, California Concert coming in proper sound? yes!

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Now only (don't care b/c I have the Japanese CD) if they were able to find the CTI Summer Jazz at the Hollywood Bowl tapes sans the overdubs, thus making it legal to put out in the US again.

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Still no Joe Farrell, hopes dashed again :angry:

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Still no Joe Farrell, hopes dashed again :angry:

Me too.

Re-issues of RED CLAY, GOD BLESS THE CHILD, SUNFLOWER, SUGAR and PRELUDE were previously available. Why can't they release some of Farrell's classic stuff, like FOLLOW YOUR HEART and OUTBACK? Sheesh!

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I'd love to see the stuff he did with Joe Beck, 'Upon this Rock', etc, never released on cd...

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Now only (don't care b/c I have the Japanese CD) if they were able to find the CTI Summer Jazz at the Hollywood Bowl tapes sans the overdubs, thus making it legal to put out in the US again.

I'd like to learn more about this. Do you have any more info about the CTI tapes and the various arguments over who owns the rights? Sony claims the North American rights (and Europe, also), but I have read Sony does not possess the stereo master tapes. Supposedly, up to now they've only had production copies of the album masters. I've assumed Sony does have possession of some of the multi-track session tapes, because several of the earliest CBS/CTI CDs (from the late '80s) were advertised as re-mixes. The King label seems to reissue the CTI material in Japan.

Doug Payne's CTI site had an article up about two months ago stating Creed Taylor and Rudy Van Gelder were both involved in a new CTI reissue program. I don't know if this is the same program that Sony masterworks has just announced. I can't find that article on Payne's site anymore, so maybe I'll e-mail and ask him...

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No jdw I don't have any more info on who owns the masters for the CTI catalog other than: Creed supposedly still owns the original masters for a bunch of sessions, Bob James owns his 4 sessions due to the above mentioned "CTI Summer Jazz at the Hollywood Bowl" legal fiasco, and Universal owns and has reissued again through the Verve Originals series Grover Washington Jr.'s most of his KUDU albums including a welcome and much needed reissue of "Soul Box", which IMO is his best for the label.

Now, this new series from Masterworks, seems to be the first time in the US where CTI albums have been reissued with their entire LP artwork intact right down to the catalog numbers. I saw a promo press kit pic of the 4 CD overview and the CD's duplicate the original label design down to RVG and the mastering no. on the right hand side even though I believe Mark Wilder is handling the mastering for these titles.

If you're wondering about the Hollywood Bowl albums, the only tune in the 3 LP's that remains untouched from overdubs is "Cherry" where you can hear Jack, though theres enough bleed from that original track you can hear him under Gadd's overdubs which must have allowed Creed to credit Jack DeJohnette and not Steve Gadd as the drummer. I have an inkling that the original tapes from this concert do exist somewhere untouched. These are my fav. CTI albums of all time, I grew up with them and was disheartened to hear about the overdubs but it did not stop me from buying the 2004 Japanese import CD set and paying $50 for it at the time.

Edited by CJ Shearn

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Thanks for the link of Marc's article. I am not getting the box though it may be nice to have, but................ I am more interested in the California Concert expanded release more than anything else.

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Nice to see Hubert Laws' "Morning Star" on CD! I've never heard him play better than on the title track of that album.

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I won't be getting the box because I seem to have about 80% of the material on it already. I will definitely get the California Concert: The Hollywood Palladium release because I've wanted to hear that for a long time, and the fact it will be in the actual concert sequence and with bonus tracks is great.

I am almost certain that most of the existing Legacy CTI reissues are remixes. It seems the gimmick with this release program is that they will be using the original master tapes, i.e. NOT remixes. I have some original RVG cut LPs of CTI albums, and I think they benefit from being remixed. But of course remixing means you aren't actually listening to exactly the same thing that was originally released.

Maybe I'll pick up the new reissue of Red Clay just to see how it differs. But the way these albums were recorded - with a lot of compression and even sometimes distortion - I wouldn't be surprised if I prefer the remixed versions that I already have.

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Marc Myers' article, linked to above, says that these new Masterworks remasterings are much inferior to those of the King reissues.

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Marc Myers' article, linked to above, says that these new Masterworks remasterings are much inferior to those of the King reissues.

It's possibly that the differences in quality are simply because the King reissues are using Sony's digital remixes, whereas these Masterworks reissues appear to be using the original mixes for the first time since the original vinyl releases.

So Myers isn't just comparing different mastering, he is also comparing new digital mixes against the original RVG analog mixes. It doesn't really surprise me that the remixes would sound better, after all, improving the sound was probably why they were remixed in the first place. These recordings have a lot of compression on them, so by remixing you can immediately remove a layer of processing.

Personally I think they should use whatever mixes sound best. But it seems that one way to justify a reissue program these days is to use the original mix, preferably by using the original master tape. Of course in the past advertising and promoting CD reissues as "digitally remixed" was considered an important selling point to motivate people to upgrade their vinyl copies! So it seems we have come full circle; now saying that the album was mastered from the original tape is considered what people should desire.

Edited by ShowsOn

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I won't be getting the box because I seem to have about 80% of the material on it already. I will definitely get the California Concert: The Hollywood Palladium release because I've wanted to hear that for a long time, and the fact it will be in the actual concert sequence and with bonus tracks is great.

I am almost certain that most of the existing Legacy CTI reissues are remixes. It seems the gimmick with this release program is that they will be using the original master tapes, i.e. NOT remixes. I have some original RVG cut LPs of CTI albums, and I think they benefit from being remixed. But of course remixing means you aren't actually listening to exactly the same thing that was originally released.

Maybe I'll pick up the new reissue of Red Clay just to see how it differs. But the way these albums were recorded - with a lot of compression and even sometimes distortion - I wouldn't be surprised if I prefer the remixed versions that I already have.

I have a few original RVG cut CTI albums too on vinyl and the Sony remixes, for example the 2002 "Sugar" sounds so much better than the 80's CD, w/o the phony added reverb that made Stanley sound so plugged in, and the problem I have with the 2002 Red Clay is it hardly sounds like the original LP at all with added warm reverb, using the same tape as the awful original CD issue here in the states, my CTI CD collection is evenly split between the 1997 and 2002 Sony issues and Japanese King issues.

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I always thought Ron Carter's All Blues is the best of his CTI albums - Joe Henderson plays very well here. Never understood why they didn't reissue this ... I'll glady replace my noisy LP.

Jobim's Stone Flower ist one of his best, IMHO. If only for the great title track. 

And the Kenny Burrell is great, too - a very nice, warm and relaxed album. Of all CTI's I own this one is played the moste often.

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I got an interesting reply from Doug Payne regarding this new CTI reissue launch and the King series, I have as I know quite a few of us do the King "Hollywood Bowl" 2003 reissue he references.

"Hi CJ,

Outside of the four-disc box set, I have not received any of the other new CTI releases yet. I'll try covering as many of them as possible on my blog once I hear them. But I can probably tell you that California Concert will sound better than the previous American CD issue but probably not as good as your LP rip or the 1994 Japanese CD release. Sony is using a different master than King has in its possession. King's is the four-track final master. Check out Jazzwax.com for more info - and more ways to spend your CTI dollars! It will just be nice to have the full concert in playing order!

Unfortunately, none of the other live music is on Sony's roster of upcoming CTI releases. Given past experience, it seems they're testing the market (which is especially surprising to me) and it seems very unlikely that they'll go toward either the Hollywood Bowl or especially the Munich releases, even if the upcoming CTI titles do well (and I'm very skeptical). To my knowledge, Sony is still not permitted to do anything with the Hollywood Bowl material (and their version of this would never match the quality of the 2003 Japanese CD) - but I'm especially surprised to see Grover Washington, Jr. and Bob James tracks on the box set.

So who knows. Maybe if we turn out in droves and buy this music that has mostly been available in many different forms over the last two decades or so, maybe it will lauch the real rebirth of CTI. I tend to doubt that will happen, though.

Stay tuned. Take care, Doug"

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That comment above "Sony is using a different master than King has in its possession. King's is the four-track final master" suggests that the King release is a remix, i.e. they digitally remixed the four tracks down to a new stereo master, whereas Sony will be using a tape with the original analog mix. So it isn't surprising that the King version sounds different (perhaps better), but it doesn't have the bonus tracks and it won't be the original mix.

I hope Masterworks do a 2 CD release of the Hubbard / Turrentine "In Concert" album. I've never heard it but the short clips I can find on the internet make it sound like a mix between the CTI sound, Miles' group circa 1969, and Herbie's Headhunters band. The existing CD omits one track, there is probably more material so it could be filled out to two discs.

I put a post up on Legacy's Uservoice about this a long time ago, so I'm glad they are releasing this material:

http://feedback.legacyrecordings.com/forums/6333-reissue-requests/suggestions/77261-cti-jazz-concerts-unedited-on-2-cd-sets

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So far the www.ctimasterworks.com site has clips of the 6 being reissued today and "Sugar" and "Red Clay" sound identical to the 2002 editions. Can anyone confirm any differences if they pick these up?

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So far the www.ctimasterworks.com site has clips of the 6 being reissued today and "Sugar" and "Red Clay" sound identical to the 2002 editions. Can anyone confirm any differences if they pick these up?

I think they are just clips put up so there is something on the site. The press release says the new releases will use the master tapes for the first time for CD. The 2002 releases were digital remixes.

I think people's opinions will differ on what sounds better.

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Hope someone could comment on "Red Clay". The natural ceiling echo at RVG's will tell me if it sounds closer to the original, not the faux reverb on the 1987 and 2002 releases. I don't want to buy the new one and find out I've been jipped with the exact same mastering. Edit: Yep, Rhapsody has it and it indeed sounds a bit different than the '02 remix, thats the one I'll be getting.

Edited by CJ Shearn

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Hope someone could comment on "Red Clay". The natural ceiling echo at RVG's will tell me if it sounds closer to the original, not the faux reverb on the 1987 and 2002 releases. I don't want to buy the new one and find out I've been jipped with the exact same mastering. Edit: Yep, Rhapsody has it and it indeed sounds a bit different than the '02 remix, thats the one I'll be getting.

You raise an interesting issue. Does the actual master tape have the reverb, or is it something that RVG added during mastering? If it is the latter, then it may be missing on these CDs. Unless of course Mark Wilder et al were specifically trying to acheive the same sound as the original vinyl.

Edited by ShowsOn

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Nope, the RVG ceiling "echo reverb" is on the original LP and on the master. If you remember "Blue Note a Story of Modern Jazz" where they interviewed Lou Donaldson, Bob Cranshaw, Tommy Turrentine and Al Harewood, that's just RVG's natural studio reverb, so the remix of "Red Clay" has warm reverb added to replace the natural studio ambiance.

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Hope someone could comment on "Red Clay". The natural ceiling echo at RVG's will tell me if it sounds closer to the original, not the faux reverb on the 1987 and 2002 releases. I don't want to buy the new one and find out I've been jipped with the exact same mastering. Edit: Yep, Rhapsody has it and it indeed sounds a bit different than the '02 remix, thats the one I'll be getting.

You raise an interesting issue. Does the actual master tape have the reverb, or is it something that RVG added during mastering? If it is the latter, then it may be missing on these CDs. Unless of course Mark Wilder et al were specifically trying to acheive the same sound as the original vinyl.

The RVG ceiling "echo reverb" is on the original LP and on the master. If you remember "Blue Note a Story of Modern Jazz" where they interviewed Lou Donaldson, Bob Cranshaw, Tommy Turrentine and Al Harewood, at RVG's that's part of the natural studio reverb, so the remix of "Red Clay" has warm reverb added to replace the natural studio ambiance whereas listening on Rhapsody confirms that original studio ambiance is on the original master.

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