Jazz Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 I have a question for anyone who is more knowledgeable than me. This question is NOT for people who know less than me, though I will still welcome their input. If you know more than me, then you might know the answer to this question. If you know less than me, you still might know the answer, because maybe you know more than me in this specific area, while I might know more than you in other areas. In fact, just ignore this whole last paragraph. This question is actually for everybody, because I actually don't know that much anyway. If you are still reading this paragraph, you must be a really, really, honestly and quite nicely patient person. Anyway, in my next paragraph, I'm going to ask the question. This is the paragraph where I ask my question. Was the Nat King Cole Trio waaaay ahead of their time, or are they indicative of an early 40's small ensemble movement that I'm unaware of? I always assumed that the straight ahead movement in the 50's was a development of bop but now I'm not sure after hearing Cole's trio who recorded pretty much smack dab in the middle of the bop era. Anyways, I hope this question isn't obtuse. Or acute or reflex or straight or right. Are you typing your answer yet? I'll just be waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragu Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Well assuming you really want an answer, as opposed to typing so you can what it looks like online...I would say that the Nat King Cole Trio actually went back as far as 1937 as a performing unit and that their unique sound came from drummer Lee Young (Lester's bro) not showing up for the first night of a gig and the trio deciding a drummerless group had a winning sound. Kind of like when Gerry Mulligan and Chet Baker didn't have room onstage at the Haig for a piano becuase there were vibes on the stage (Norvos?) so they formed a pianoless quartet and realized they were onto something. Other groups followed Coles lead like Johnny Moore's Three Blazers (Johnny being the brother of Oscar Moore, Nat's guitar player) featuring Charles Brown. The Cole Trio continued to develop and record and get popular until eventually Nat shed the trio to go more or less pop. And while all were excellent musicians they chose not to play straight bebop when that movement came along, probably because they'd already found something they were good at and that was popular. A lot of musicians around during the bop era chose to not to throw everything they'd learned up to that point out the window, but rather let bop influence their playing in subtly harmonic and rhythmic ways. Check out a 1997 Capitol 3CD set called The Cocktail Combos for great examples of the Nat Cole Trio, Johnny Moore's Three Blazers, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 (edited) I would say that possibly, in some ways, if you look at it with a recidivist viewpoint, there's a chance Cole was that pervasive an influence, however perhaps not. Edited January 11, 2004 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold_Z Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 I'm going to use all this prior verbosity as an excuse to promulgate a musician who has been imho has been shortchanged in terms of recognition and influence among guitarists, and that's Oscar Moore. The guy had great sound and technique and I think he really influenced guitarists - the Nat Cole Trio was so popular that his playing became pervasive, espescially for gigging guitarists. As far as the Trio...innovative? I don't know - I think more likely that it was right on a very hip musical spot at the precise right time and became the leading example of a sub genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted January 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 If what you say is true, Harold, about a sub genre then that really changes the way I look at Jazz history. I'll have to check out the Three Blazers and see what they sound like. Another question: Does anyone know of other artists with small ensembles in the later 30's through the 40's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Another question: Does anyone know of other artists with small ensembles in the later 30's through the 40's? Try Benny Goodman, to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Oscar Moore was a huge influence on Kenny Burrell (and no doubt many others). Art Tatum had employed the trio format as early as 1932, according to what I've read. With Cole's success, Tatum reorganized a trio with Tiny Grimes and Slam Stewart circa 1943 (fabulous music!). Fats Waller had a trio (gutarist was Al Casey) in the 30's. Clarence Profit had a trio (Jimmy Shirley on guitar) in 1937. Guitarist Leonard Ware had a trio in the 40's. From a guitar point of view, Charlie Christian influenced everybody, and the Goodman quartet was no doubt an influence on the small group sound in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 (edited) Another question: Does anyone know of other artists with small ensembles in the later 30's through the 40's? Was John Kirby Sextet extremely popular at that period, also (if it counts in small band format)? Or Louis Jordan? Just to add one thought to yours question: King Cole maybe not directly influenced bop bands, but Oscar Peterson working supporting group for sure! So, he did not influenced bop, he influenced "straightforward Verve sound" of 1950's. Edited January 15, 2004 by mmilovan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 The King Cole Trio certainly influenced a lot of singers. Amongst them: the previously mentioned Charles Brown, Ray Charles (who was also inlfuenced by Brown) and-- according to an interview I heard with him-- Frankie Laine!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Bill Evans cited Cole as HUGE influence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Also Wynton Kelly. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Also Wynton Kelly. . . . Didn't know that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Bill Evans cited Cole as HUGE influence... Didn't know that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 The King Cole Trio certainly influenced a lot of singers. Amongst them: the previously mentioned Charles Brown, Ray Charles (who was also inlfuenced by Brown) and-- according to an interview I heard with him-- Frankie Laine!!! I just heard a Ray Charles recording 'Roll with my Baby' and damn if he didn't sound exactly the same as Nat. I did a double take on my iPod when I realized it was Ray singing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Ray Charles hooked up with Oscar Moore and the bass player (forgetting his name now) after Cole had moved on. RC's early records were straight King Cole Trio knock-offs. My Dad had one of these on 78, "All to Myself Alone." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Ray Charles hooked up with Oscar Moore and the bass player (forgetting his name now) after Cole had moved on. RC's early records were straight King Cole Trio knock-offs. My Dad had one of these on 78, "All to Myself Alone." The bassist was Johnny Miller. Listening to "The Way I Feel" (the RC Proper box), it's clear that RC also emulated Charles Brown's sound on certain recordings. On the 1950 tracks with Oscar Moore, he emulates both Cole's sound ("I Wonder Who's Kissing Her Now?", "All To Myself Alone") as well as Brown's ("Lonely Boy", "Baby, Let Me Hold Your Hand"). The other thing that jumps out at me... Oscar Moore had a lot more going on than the guitar players he had recorded with before that. I love the Three Blazers, btw. Some of my favorite music, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 Just checking for Nat King Cole LP recommendations, and I don't believe that we actually have a thread. Does one exist? Otherwise I'll start one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said: Just checking for Nat King Cole LP recommendations, and I don't believe that we actually have a thread. Does one exist? Otherwise I'll start one. A lot of his best music, with the trio, pre-dates the LP era. If you are looking for LPs, I would recommend After Midnight and Nat King Cole Sings/George Shearing Plays, for starters. Edited October 6, 2022 by Teasing the Korean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 Just now, Teasing the Korean said: A lot of his best music, with the trio, pre-dates the LP era. If you are looking for LPs, I would recommend After Midnight and his album with George Shearing, for starters. Thanks. I was actually looking for the next steps after those two. I had managed to go through life missing After Midnight until now and wanted to know where to go next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 Just now, Rabshakeh said: Thanks. I was actually looking for the next steps after those two. I had managed to go through life missing After Midnight until now and wanted to know where to go next. Well, most of the 1950s Capitol LPs with either Nelson Riddle, Billy May, or Dave Cavanaugh are worthwhile. You may or may not like the album with Gordon Jenkins, depending on how you feel about Sinatra's albums with Jenkins. For Nat Cole, things get dicey in the early 1960s with pop stuff like "Ramblin' Rose" and "Lazy Hazy Crazy Days of Summer." Proceed with caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 it's Nat with the Basie band, check it out: and yes, Gordon Jenkins can be an, uh...acquired taste, but this is a good record, period: This CD set is pretty much indispensable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 8 minutes ago, JSngry said: it's Nat with the Basie band, check it out: and yes, Gordon Jenkins can be an, uh...acquired taste, but this is a good record, period: This CD set is pretty much indispensable Completely agree with your suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 Thank you. These look really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 15 minutes ago, JSngry said: and yes, Gordon Jenkins can be an, uh...acquired taste, but this is a good record, period: I never heard the album you posted. I know Love is the Thing. How does it compare to that one, or to Frank's Where Are You or No One Cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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