king ubu Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Flurin has a great point about the integration of the sax in the sound of the band. It may be it is not helped by the mix of some of those live recordings - it tends to sit on top like a too-thin lead thread - a 'dirtier' mix might help. Though the mixes are dirty enough I suppose.... I've been mulling this over - also since I coincidentally played some James Brown (just post prime, mid seventies stuff, after the Wesley-led band had called it quits ... I still love much of those tracks!) ... and what would the options have been? I mean, Miles' music, from 1969/70 (think Jack Johnson, too, not just the live double albums) got "earthy" in some ways it never had been before (couldn't have, of course) .... yet the earthiest of all (jazz) instruments, the tenor sax, would no longer fit into the sonic spectrum on hand (Shorter played more and more soprano, Grossman too, Bartz was on - high - alto and soprano, Liebman more often on soprano than tenor) ... seems like chirpy stuff would fit in, somehow, but rarely do we get any kind of raucous tenor exploration of the kind that Shorter would (in his own raucous-yet-sublime manner, of course) deliver. Not sure if this all makes much sense, but ... would tenor players (Stubblefield was there once, wasn't he?) have been to "individual", too strong voices not merging that well with the entire "brew" that Miles' bands from 1970 to 1975 tended to present? One thing that always struck me on the original "Live Evil" (another favorite, I had the old French Renaud-produced CD edition, messy sound, but I loved it) is how you can barely tell trumpet, guitar and organ solos apart - how it all meshes into one boiling pot of sonic magic. Miles of course was the magus and he gave the direction to it all ("Directions in music by Miles Davis", remember?), so obviously he knew (no matter if instinctively or in any pre-conceived/grown way) how to mesh, or even how to lead it ... or how to let it evolve and when to intrude and direct and change it. But can you actually imagine any really strong and individual voice in there, next to Miles' own? There are moments where Liebman (and Bartz too, I'm rather with Lon there) could do some great stuff, kinda freed themselves up or kinda could get on top of it ... but often - also on film - it seems like you can almost feel how awkward they feel and how they wait for a moment where they can possibly rejoin what's going on around them, kinda just standing around trying to at least look cool (which they were darn good at, against all odds!) So, would Miles have had any use for some McCullough like antics? Probably he'd have hated it .... and no, I think it would have quickly grown tiresome (as it frankly did with JB, a year or so was just about enough ... though I'd surely have loved the Collins brothers stay on longer!). Could have have had use for Maceo (or St. Clair, the big unsung hero of that great mid/late sixties JB band)? No ... or well, yes, in the sparse "Jack Johnson" period surely so, but after, in the magus mixing sonic sculptures era? Not, I think. Anyway, these are lose mumblings I've been mulling over in my head for half a day now, not sure how much of it makes sense, but I find it all pretty fascinating, I confess, just to think about all these possible or impossible gos or no-gos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Maybe Miles just wanted to be different and move from tenor to soprano just because rock and soul fans might find it a novelty and it would play with their preconceptions and give them a trippy new sound. Or maybe Miles was inspired by Coltrane's ventures into the land of new sound on the soprano and felt that instrument might lead his players into similar zones. And maybe Miles himself just wanted to get as far away from the trumpet-tenor and rhythm history of his as he could as he shifted gears. Edited January 31, 2014 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Yeah ... but somehow all notions of a winds frontline with rhythm accompaniment were way past at that time, weren't they? The thought of Coltrane though is one that's interesting ... are there any specific quotes of Miles known in that respect (like him endorsing the soprano, or having Shorter play soprano because of Coltrane or anything)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Grossman was 19 years old in 1970. He did OK under the circumstances. I've never really been a fan of those Fillmore shows or the stuff that became Live-Evil, much prefer the studio stuff from that era. I also like Fortune best in the post-Shorter bands. But almost always found the bands to be less than the sum of their parts in that time. Granted, the parts were awesome, so it would have been hard to meet expectations. I really like the Grossman/Liebman front line on the Elvin Jones Lighthouse set (everybody on tenor sounded great with Jones in those years - Liebman, Grossman, Foster, Farrell, Coleman, all of them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l p Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 the only miles 1970's sax player who's solos i don't skip is Bartz. the last two guys after liebman weren't overly annoying either. and i even learned to enjoy jarrett's playing on the 70/71 shows. still can't tolerate the shorter, corea, and liebman contributions to the music. as for liebman, my guess is that, at that point in time, miles had a white guy in the band so that concert booking people/club owners wouldn't be turned off by an all black band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Clugston Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 as for liebman, my guess is that, at that point in time, miles had a white guy in the band so that concert booking people/club owners wouldn't be turned off by an all black band. Nope. Miles liked his playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgraham333 Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 US Amazon price dropped to $41.46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 With the last Bootleg Series release, I think that on release date, there was still a $10 difference between Amazon UK and US (UK being cheaper). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Well now, that Azar Lawrence kinda walked out there and shook things up before walking off, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Oh yeah, what I like about the notey sax players that Miles invariably hired during this period (Bartz being the fascinating exception, although his contributions on the Euro-tour from the gigs I've heard, start getting pretty formulaic and seldom budge, but when it does,oh yeah YES!)) is that for the most part you didn't really have to listen to them, they were working out their Tranemath, same as they did with Elvin and on their own, it was a separate quest, really, one of catching up out of a sense of duty/compulsion/culture (not wholly misguided, but not really necessary except as a personal need, imo) but once you figure that out, that allows you, the listener, to just hear them as streaks of light in the sky, always in and out, but never really material, and then shift your focus to the rest of the band, which is where the real action was. Not saying they don't matter, but their role, intentional or otherwise, was as a diversion/redirection. I have not always felt this way, but, after years of trying to direct my focus to Liebman, Grossman, even Sony Fortune (to a lesser extent, that tone was/is so personal) and find that, no, can't do it for too long before heading back to the rhythm section (especially once Miles took up the organ and started inserting all those denseass chords (hello Continuing Gil Evans Partnership Of Kindred Spirit Brotherhood) in those quirky spots that he would do (which would then often provoke a response from Reggie Lucas, you don't listen to this music for the solos, you just don't, I mean, you can, but you can also look at a car and just see the headlights, and when you ride in a car, are you still focusing on the headlights? Or even worse, when you drive the thing?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Well now, that Azar Lawrence kinda walked out there and shook things up before walking off, eh? Award for the shortest entrance/exit and shaking things up a bit goes to Kalaparusha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Thanks Jim - makes sense to me!Btw, thinking of Miles I finally tried to order the Blu-Spec reissues of "Agartha" and "Pangaea" ... hope CD Japan still gets them (says 3-5 days, so I'm crossing my fingers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesoul Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Thanks Jim - makes sense to me! Btw, thinking of Miles I finally tried to order the Blu-Spec reissues of "Agartha" and "Pangaea" ... hope CD Japan still gets them (says 3-5 days, so I'm crossing my fingers). I ordered Agartha from them a couple months ago, I received it very quickly, less than two weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Which edition of Agharta has the extra 10 or so minutes of guitar noise at the end? Lon has/had it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 This 'un http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Disco.aspx?id=Agharta-CD2 Maybe new Blu-spec 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 This 'unhttp://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Disco.aspx?id=Agharta-CD2 Maybe new Blu-spec 2?Yep. I also have that one; great set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I have that one also (one of those especially imported by Sony USA from Japan in 1997). If I'm not mistaken, the version in the 71 disc box has the extra minutes as well. The question is: are they GOOD minutes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) I have that one also (one of those especially imported by Sony USA from Japan in 1997). If I'm not mistaken, the version in the 71 disc box has the extra minutes as well. The question is: are they GOOD minutes? No extra minutes on the 71 disc box (Complete Columbia Album Collection). CD 2 of Agharta is 51:36 there according to my CD player (51:56 according to the box's book). Are the Japanese discs sonically superior to the Complete Album Collection editions from 2009? I thought these sounded very good. This besides the question JETman put forward of the quality of the music in those ten minutes. Edited February 2, 2014 by erwbol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Which edition of Agharta has the extra 10 or so minutes of guitar noise at the end? Lon has/had it. This 'un http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Disco.aspx?id=Agharta-CD2 Maybe new Blu-spec 2? Another Question. Do (post Mastersound) all Japanese editions have the extra minutes of music? Do you know of a post Mastersound release that does not have them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 According to what I can decipher from Losin's site (someone else may figure this out better than I) no. The two listed with the added matrerial are from '96 and '97. There is a later one listed that is the lp length and mix. I can't tell if the Blu-Spec or Blu-Spec 2 cd is listed, they don't appear to be, in any case both are not. I have that one also (one of those especially imported by Sony USA from Japan in 1997). If I'm not mistaken, the version in the 71 disc box has the extra minutes as well. The question is: are they GOOD minutes? No extra minutes on the 71 disc box (Complete Columbia Album Collection). CD 2 of Agharta is 51:56 there. Are the Japanese discs sonically superior to the Complete Album Collection editions from 2009? I thought these sounded very good. This besides the question JETman put forward of the quality of the music in those ten minutes. The Agharta in the Complete Album Collection is, I believe, a very good-sounding Wilder-tweaked mastering from Sony SICP 1230/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Thank you. Maiysha is also a minute shorter on the (excellent) Wilder remaster. The end is a fade out during Mtume's percussion (I downloaded the Mastersound in FLAC through bittorrent this morning). I also downloaded the 2001 Japanese Pangaea (SRCS 9752-3, not a Mastersound CD) and Gondawana is actually over 2:30 minutes longer on the 2009 Wilder remaster! Listening to the Agharta Mastersound I cannot justify buying this thing second hand at an inflated price for ten minutes of guitar feedback and percussion. Edited February 2, 2014 by erwbol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wood Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 I had no idea there were such variations in timings. I'll have to check my Mastersounds of Pangaea and Agharta.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Pete Losin's site is very useful for this, shows timings on the five releases listed. http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Disco.aspx?d=7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) According to Losin all issues of Gondwana are incomplete except for SRCS 9130/1 from 1997. Could this be what Wilder used and/or tweaked for Pangaea in the 2009 box? Edited February 6, 2014 by erwbol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 I just checked by new BCSDMFT CD (sorry, I live in an acronym world and am acromymically challenged, so...) of Agharta (bought because holy shit, I thought I had bought this on CD once, but no, had not, DOH!), and the Disc Two timing does not indicate extra music added. Bummer. Are the Japanese Mastersound edtion of this and Pangea (also with extra minutes, or not?) both even somewhat semi-regularly available? I want those extra minutes (I have them on a dub somewhere, and enjoy the effect very much, it's like the concert starts with a Big Atomic Boom, and the end is like a further extension of the atomic decay, a few minutes closer to reaching half-life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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