The Sleaziness of Definitive

[king ubu]

Yup, that's why I often buy discs straight from the musician at gigs, whenever I have enough cash on me and they don't ask ridiculous prices, that is ...

But re: "if people don't like these products they won't buy them", I think that is oversimplifying it quite a bit, since "these products" stop better product from being produced. Now you can argue "people don't want better product" and maybe you're right. But are wi in such dark times again, really?

[Daniel A]

One aspect of releases from PD labels is that they are often making the product available through streaming services like Spotify. The administrative cost is low, and the (albeit diminutive) proceeds are seemingly going right into the pockets of these shady businessmen. When these releases are sitting side by side with the legitimate ones it gets very clear: by clicking on this track it's three cents to the company that remastered this and made it available, by clicking on that same track as released by a PD label it's three cents to the shady businessmen.

[David Ayers]

More loose thinking than i can chase down, but let's put it this way - consolidators like Universal don't own the PD material - no-one does. How you access it is up to you. The consolidator may control the physical masters, but has zero ownership in the recording. Zero. People either get this or they don't.

As for the claim that the PD issues prevent consolidators from investing in marketing back catalog, the pattern of releases over the years does not suggest that. PD labels go beyond what the consolidators do. PD reissues generally cost more than the (equally PD in Europe) consolidators' own reissues. In any case, consolidators have done this stuff in the past, as with Blue Note, but backed off as they could not make it work in terms of their business model, They still do it from time to time, as with the recent Warner Atlantic series, and when they do it they sell cheaper than the PD labels.

This debate will wane, I think, as major copyright owners got European PD reset to 70 years from now on to protect their major properties such as the Beatles.

PS - yes on streaming, which changes the debate yet again - the PD releases make Spotify look like a junk shop, un-navigable.

[Big Beat Steve]

But re: "if people don't like these products they won't buy them", I think that is oversimplifying it quite a bit, since "these products" stop better product from being produced. Now you can argue "people don't want better product" and maybe you're right. But are wi in such dark times again, really?

You seem to ignore the fact that in MANY cases there is NO ONE out there who would make the music available as "better product". Because they simply don't give a hoot. Just look at the Fresh Sound catalog and tell me how much of the music on 50s jazz "indie" labels or "niche artists" that they have done would be produced by Mosaic or any of the majors.

A case in point: The recent debate about Bethlehem reissues from Japan. I am really glad that I picked up most of those reisues wthat came out on vinyl in the 80s on Fresh Sound or on the UK Affinity label so for the most part of that catalog, I'm simply done (and you know what, those reissues don't sound that crappy at all). Where were others around that time who'd even have cared about Behtlehem (outside Japan, anyway)??

IMO FS are FAR ahead of "churners-out" of P.D. box sets like Proper in their diversity of the music they make available. Not that I am overly content with their packaging strategies of "2 LPs on 1 CD", for example, but that's a different story.

BTW, I am not talking about cases like "Uptown" that do see their releases ripped off by P.D. labels. I would only buy Uptown releases in such cases (not least of all because of the packaging and what I get for my money but also as a matter of principle) and I do see the problem of P.D. piggyback riders in such cases. But these are minority cases IMO. In many cases the P.D. labels go where the majors or "legit" lables have never BOTHERED to tread.

And - AGAIN - Japanese reissues that may have been around for 4 weeks somewhere around 2002 and then went OOP like the wind are NO argument WHATSOEVER that a "legit" release "IS available". Such sporadic avilability in a (in many cases) difficult-to-access marketplace and lack of international promotion of the product essentially means UNavailability to the greater community of fans of the music as such. KEEP it in print, market it ACTIVELY worldwide in a decent manner, then we can reconsider this aspect of the debate. But if not - then "use it or lose it" in the P.D. sector. (Surprising, BTW, that nobody so far has seen fit to anwser my query about artist royalty payments by the Japanese reissuers )

That said, David Ayers has nailed it with his reference to the cost of distribution of "tangible products". Look there to see where the money goes when it comes to the price of a CD.

And finally, I don't do streaming and certainly won't for a long time to come. I am only referring to the CD market here. Streaming might be a different subject but not one I personally am affected by in my buying patterns so this is for someone else to discuss or justify.

[Scott Dolan]

This may not be as bad as it appears. The CDDB, which most media players and ripping software use, ID:s the disc solely on basis of the TOC (number, length and order of tracks). Therefore the players can't separate two releases containing the same track timings.

Of course, Definitive may have copied the previous release anyway.

Right, but in that case you'd get multiple titles to select from. And if he didn't get that...

I remember ripping The Beatles box set. Good god, there were at least four titles to choose from for each disc. Even one in Japanese script!

[Daniel A]

Right, but in that case you'd get multiple titles to select from. And if he didn't get that...

Well, if the timings were identical (as were - I would assume - the artist and title info) nobody would have needed to submit a new entry to the CDDB for the Definitive release. In that case the info regarding the previous release would just keep on popping up whenever a copy of the Definitive release is inserted into the player.

[ejp626]

This may not be as bad as it appears. The CDDB, which most media players and ripping software use, ID:s the disc solely on basis of the TOC (number, length and order of tracks). Therefore the players can't separate two releases containing the same track timings.

Of course, Definitive may have copied the previous release anyway.

Right, but in that case you'd get multiple titles to select from. And if he didn't get that...

I remember ripping The Beatles box set. Good god, there were at least four titles to choose from for each disc. Even one in Japanese script!

I think it depends on the settings. When I am getting ready to rip a CD, it just defaults to the closest match and then you have to prompt to go off and look for additional titles.

But I will say that I can't believe this dead horse is being flogged yet again...

Edited March 20, 2014 by ejp626

[Scott Dolan]

iTunes brings up all possible titles/releases if multiple ones exist.

Not sure if I can change the settings or not.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[David Ayers]

But I will say that I can't believe this dead horse is being flogged yet again...

Guilty

[AllenLowe]

to me, it's only not a bootleg if they observe the applicable laws of the country from which it is issued - and as far as I know (from having done reissues for foreign companies) this does require paying into the Euro licensing/publishing fund. And I would be willing to bet that Definitive does not do this; or maybe they do.

now, having said that, I am not necessarily condemning them; just defining them.

[king ubu]

I'd even guess they do ... and to flock the dead ol' mare some more, I don't disagree with anything Big Beat Steve says above (partly in reply to me), and I guess he actually knows

What I was pointing out is how crappy the rock bottom of these cheapo labels is - and it was my understanding this thread was more about that than the okay to fine reissues often coming from Fresh Sound or Lonehill or others of the kind. I was talking' "27 original albums on 9 discs for 3 eurozlotys" and crappy Definitive boxes (such as the one that prompted this thread) and crappy Membran boxes ... those okay to fine reissues, I assume (I don't have that many of 'em and didn't run checks) don't use MP3 to start with. There's differences between PD labels and the quality of their product, and the mere fact that some of these ARE crap and the fact that I pointed that out does not mean I'm saying the ALL are crap.

[AllenLowe]

even Proper has gotten very good.

[David Ayers]

Ubu is right on that in a general way, although IIRC the Definitive Parker box was for a while the *only* easy way to get that material. If I am wrong on that somebody correct me.

[king ubu]

even Proper has gotten very good.

Indeed they did - stuff like their Tubby Hayes box is most welcome. Guess I need the Harriott eventually, too ... granted I'd prefer more Dutton/Vocalion reissues (and hey, some of those might indeed have been surpassed before release by - other - PD reissues ... and hey again, that scenario hurts me when it's about small labels, call me sentimental, but I still think I made a point or two above that remain valid, even if we give the majors the finger, which I'm most ready to do).

Ubu is right on that in a general way, although IIRC the Definitive Parker box was for a while the *only* easy way to get that material. If I am wrong on that somebody correct me.

Not sure, wasn't the Spotlite set around for most of the time? In fact it might still be around:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000026QCO/

Now for the Savoys ...

[David Ayers]

even Proper has gotten very good.

Indeed they did - stuff like their Tubby Hayes box is most welcome. Guess I need the Harriott eventually, too ... granted I'd prefer more Dutton/Vocalion reissues (and hey, some of those might indeed have been surpassed before release by - other - PD reissues ... and hey again, that scenario hurts me when it's about small labels, call me sentimental, but I still think I made a point or two above that remain valid, even if we give the majors the finger, which I'm most ready to do).

Ubu is right on that in a general way, although IIRC the Definitive Parker box was for a while the *only* easy way to get that material. If I am wrong on that somebody correct me.

Not sure, wasn't the Spotlite set around for most of the time? In fact it might still be around:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000026QCO/

Now for the Savoys ...

Yes Spotlite was first but is only the Dial of course. The Savoys were more of a challenge...

[JSngry]

Define "easy".

[Chuck Nessa]

even Proper has gotten very good.

Indeed they did - stuff like their Tubby Hayes box is most welcome. Guess I need the Harriott eventually, too ... granted I'd prefer more Dutton/Vocalion reissues (and hey, some of those might indeed have been surpassed before release by - other - PD reissues ... and hey again, that scenario hurts me when it's about small labels, call me sentimental, but I still think I made a point or two above that remain valid, even if we give the majors the finger, which I'm most ready to do).

Ubu is right on that in a general way, although IIRC the Definitive Parker box was for a while the *only* easy way to get that material. If I am wrong on that somebody correct me.

Not sure, wasn't the Spotlite set around for most of the time? In fact it might still be around:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000026QCO/

Now for the Savoys ...

Yes Spotlite was first but is only the Dial of course. The Savoys were more of a challenge...

In my experience the bulk of Savoys have been around almost constantly from the mid '50s.

[Teasing the Korean]

There is a legal precedent for lifting public domain works that another label issued. Bear Family found a very rare Carter Family track and spent time and money to sonically clean it up. Another European label put Bear Family's restoration of the track on their album, claiming it was in the public domain. Bear Family argued that they invested time and money into the restoration. The European court ruled in Bear Family's favor.

[Big Beat Steve]

There is a legal precedent for lifting public domain works that another label issued. Bear Family found a very rare Carter Family track and spent time and money to sonically clean it up. Another European label put Bear Family's restoration of the track on their album, claiming it was in the public domain. Bear Family argued that they invested time and money into the restoration. The European court ruled in Bear Family's favor.

JSP?

As for the basic problem of such rarities that round out the larger picture of an artist's opus in a reissue, this brings to mind Ghost's query for the Fresh Sound "Go West Young Med" CD in another thread. The first four and final two tracks on that "Go West" CD (that complete the leader's recordings by Med Flory frmt he 50s) were originaly issued on two EmArcy 45s (78s?) and a World Pacific 45. Were these tracks ever reissued (and remastered) elsewhere before? Bruyninckx says No but of course is probably not up to date on all the reissues ever released out there. I haven't found any reissue trace anywhere. At any rate (referring to JSngry's question above), I'd define these six tracks as NOT being "easy" to get elsewhere.

Maybe a bit OT, this, but it might help to highlight a case of where the PD labels do render a service and fill a gap (in the sense of what King Ubu hinted at above).

[king ubu]

Maybe a bit OT, this, but it might help to highlight a case of where the PD labels do render a service and fill a gap (in the sense of what King Ubu hinted at above).

Remember this thread?

(And look who started it )

[Big Beat Steve]

No, honestly I did not.

I do remember touting the Rusty Bryant CD reissue on Lonehill here because it DOES fill a gap (one of those areas neglected by everybody else). But I cannot recall this particular thread. Might be worth rereading it in detail, though. But before wading through all 13 pages, does it mention the Med Flory FS CD at all?

[king ubu]

Not sure ... I only just got it (I'm not saying "got aware", since I might have seen it and forgotten again years ago), but that's indeed one of those about which that thread initially was intended to be about (it got, of course, derailed as well).

[Jams_Runt]

All this is why I will only steal Definitive collections off the internet. I kid... I kid...

[gmonahan]

Definitive can be a like a meal that goes wrong. Tastes good at the time, but you can come to regret it later.

gregmo

[l p]

reminds me of a funny story about a classical pianist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Hatto#Fraud
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2125348/Pianist-Joyce-Hatto-Husband-reveals-fooled-world-fake-recordings.html
In February 2007 it was announced in a series of articles in Gramophone and the magazine's website (after editor James Inverne commissioned an intensive investigation from audio expert Andrew Rose and others) that the CDs ascribed to Hatto had been discovered to contain copies, in some cases digitally manipulated (stretched or shrunk in time, re-equalised and rebalanced), of published commercial recordings made by other artists.