Cannonball's Place In The Pantheon

[Rabshakeh]

I'm interested to know where other forum members might place Cannonball Adderley in their personal pantheons of saxophone Greats.

This is judged on the sole category of your own personal perception of his "Greatness", capital "G" in comparison to his peers.

In your opinion, is he right up there with Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane in the world spanning cosmic titans, or is he closer to sublunary greats like Hank Mobley, Yusef Lateef or Benny Golson?

Really, I'm interested to know how people feel about Cannonball's place in jazz history. I am asking because he's interesting in that he's one of the most well known of all jazz musicians, but unlike his peers in recognition terms he is rarely discussed in ways that emphasise his "genius" (an overused term in jazz writing, but rarely for Adderley).

[Gheorghe]

Great player yes, but starting from my first listening from the Miles Davis sextet I always listened closer to Trane, somehow it´s more my taste of music. The BN with Miles as sideman is nice, but it doesn´t get much spinning. 

And somehow I completly missed the most popular phase of the 60´s . It seems if it´s about the 60´s I´m listening much more to 60´s Miles, Wayne, Herbie, Henderson, Sam Rivers, Mingus, Ornette Coleman , Don Cherry , Cecil Taylor, Trane of the 60´s . 

I know very very many people felt enthusiastic about the kind of "soul jazz" and those hits like Mercy Mercy and all those, but somehow it never really moved me like the above mentioned artists of the same period. 
But I also heard some interesting Adderly on a Gene Ammons 1973 LP in Montreux, with Cannonball and Dexter sittin in on the last track, a jam blues. Thats some fun listening to...

[jazzbo]

I'm always amazed at the facility of his playing and his stage and session "presence." I consider him one of the greats. . . I'd put him in the "middleweight" category that Hank Mobley got boxed into. 

His extroverted personality and his obvious passion for music cannot be hidden and is very much enjoyed. His band leadership was solid and his ear and eye for talent sharp. 

I need to play his music again soon. I get into phases with artists where I dig deeply and listen long. . . it's been a while since Cannon has occupied one of these phases, I should correct that. Japan just reissued cd editions from last decade that are worth examining if they are new to one.

[JSngry]

How great was Cannonball? As great as Cannonball was!

[John L]

Sometimes Cannonball hits the spot like nobody else.   That corresponds to who I put in the first tier, somebody who gives you something special that nobody else does.   As far as his place in jazz history goes - no, he was not as influential as Coltrane or Rollins.  But that is a different question.  The greatness of an artist is not just in his or her influence on the development of the art.  

[Pim]

Not sure he was the most innovative or explorative of sax players but damn he was great. Don’t know how to describe it exactly but there was just so much soul and feeling in his playing. He is among the guys that really got me into jazz. Late ‘50’s early 60’s is my favorite period. You know the bands with Hayes and Sam Jones etc. Great stuff.

[HutchFan]

I would say that Cannonball is certainly among my very favorite saxophonists.   It's a small handful, and he's in there.  No doubt.

I'll leave other sorts of assessments -- historical judgments and the like -- to other folks who are more qualified than me.   

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by HutchFan

[Peter Friedman]

In my view, Cannonball was a fine jazz musician, but not at the level of players such as Rollins or Coltrane.

My favorite period of his recordings starts from the mid-fifties to about 1963. His sextet sessions with Yusef Lateef are my favorites. After that Cannonball continued make a number of very good recordings, but not as interesting (to me) as that sextet with Yusef Lateef. 

 

 

[HutchFan]

6 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Really, I'm interested to know how people feel about Cannonball's place in jazz history. I am asking because he's interesting in that he's one of the most well known of all jazz musicians, but unlike his peers in recognition terms he is rarely discussed in ways that emphasise his "genius" (an overused term in jazz writing, but rarely for Adderley).

I think that's because many of Cannonball's strengths aren't (or haven't been) regarded as important by those who've established the jazz canon.  The thinking goes like this: "Cannonball is a descendant of Bird; therefore, he is less important than Bird." 

I think these sorts of assessments are simplistic because Cannonball brings all sorts of musical qualities to the table that Bird did not.  

But if your conceptual model of jazz -- the way that you go about figuring out what is "historically significant" -- is based on some sort of ascending, evolutionary progression that many critics & authors love (because it makes an often illogical rat's nest of a jumble into something "sensical" and even inevitable), then Cannonball doesn't fit in all that well.

 

[JSngry]

I like most of his Capitol records more than I like most of his Emarcy & Riverside records. There you have a jazz alto player playing really well. But on the Capitol records, you get CANNONBALL. Not just a damn good alto player, but a freaking personality. And a personality with a band built around that personality, a band that played a shitload of a variety of musics for a shitload of a variety of peoples.

Not everybody can do that, you know.

[Rabshakeh]

18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I like most of his Capitol records more than I like most of his Emarcy & Riverside records. There you have a jazz alto player playing really well. But on the Capitol records, you get CANNONBALL. Not just a damn good alto player, but a freaking personality. And a personality with a band built around that personality, a band that played a shitload of a variety of musics for a shitload of a variety of peoples.

Not everybody can do that, you know.

I actually started this post because some references (I think yours) to those Capitol records led me to reappraise Cannonball, who I have never really classed as a personal favourite, probably because of overexposure to the Riversides. I have been working my way around his back catalogue since then, and have been very impressed at how he plays on his first record, which I think is on Savoy. He just sounds so loose in comparison to the standard 1955 bluesey hard bop approach. You can hear the link right through to those late Capitols. Despite being basically a blues specialist, his playing sounds quite unique to my ears. He also does some weird stuff with his solos (e.g. on the first track on Portrait) that you really would not expect from a player who plays the way Cannonball does.

It's a weird one though. He has the name recognition of Bill Evans or Art Blakey, but, other than KOB, Milestones and Somethin' Else, there's very little tribute paid in the wider jazz culture to his actual saxophone playing or records, even less tribute than e.g. Mobley, who is a lot less well known.

[Guy Berger]

7 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I actually started this post because some references (I think yours) to those Capitol records led me to reappraise Cannonball, who I have never really classed as a personal favourite, probably because of overexposure to the Riversides. I have been working my way around his back catalogue since then, and have been very impressed at how he plays on his first record, which I think is on Savoy. He just sounds so loose in comparison to the standard 1955 bluesey hard bop approach. You can hear the link right through to those late Capitols. Despite being basically a blues specialist, his playing sounds quite unique to my ears. He also does some weird stuff with his solos (e.g. on the first track on Portrait) that you really would not expect from a player who plays the way Cannonball does.

It's a weird one though. He has the name recognition of Bill Evans or Art Blakey, but, other than KOB, Milestones and Somethin' Else, there's very little tribute paid in the wider jazz culture to his actual saxophone playing or records, even less tribute than e.g. Mobley, who is a lot less well known.

I'm aligned w/you and JSngry here.

I'd describe a lot of the early Cannonball as musical dessert or "ear candy" - it's wonderful, sweet playing, but not necessarily with a lot of depth.  The best stuff comes out when he's contrasted against, and matched, with deeper players - Miles, Coltrane, Yusef Lateef.

Starting around 1962-63 that depth starts showing up in Cannonball's own playing as well - more of a tasty well-rounded meal with sweet parts rather than just dessert.

The music he was making in the late 60s was genuinely visionary, and compares favorably to that made by his "peers" making populist/adventurous music around the same time (Charles Lloyd, Herbie Mann, John Handy).  Miles picked up the baton in 1968-9 and took it to the next level.

[BillF]

3 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

In my view, Cannonball was a fine jazz musician, but not at the level of players such as Rollins or Coltrane.

My favorite period of his recordings starts from the mid-fifties to about 1963. After that Cannonball continued make a number of very good recordings, but not as interesting (to me). 

 

 

You said it for me, Peter. (Excuse the editing.)

Pleased to have caught Cannonball just after that period - in '65 with Nat, Chas Lloyd, Zawinul, Jones and Hayes.

Edited November 30, 2021 by BillF

[Peter Friedman]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I like most of his Capitol records more than I like most of his Emarcy & Riverside records. There you have a jazz alto player playing really well. But on the Capitol records, you get CANNONBALL. Not just a damn good alto player, but a freaking personality. And a personality with a band built around that personality, a band that played a shitload of a variety of musics for a shitload of a variety of peoples.

Not everybody can do that, you know.

What you said is the very reason that I prefer his Riverside recordings to the one on Capitol. Being a PERSONALITY is nice, but for me the music is the key. 

Also, as a hardcore jazz fan, I am more focused on the music for jazz listeners. Music for a "variety of peoples", is fine but not of high priority to me.

[Rabshakeh]

There's something about those late Capitols: their sprawling, loose, anything can happen vibe, plus the fact that there are so many of them that they're practically a genre in themselves. 

[Milestones]

I'm a rather big fan of Cannonball, though there have been long stretches when I neglected him.  In my early days as a jazz lover, I was excited by his playing on Milestones and Kind of Blue.  

Yet I have not been a big collector of his albums; his number is a pittance compared to Coltrane's. 

The notion of influence is important, and in that respect he is well behind Trane and Sonny.

There is also the importance of creating a handful of truly classic records.  Cannonball has plenty of good ones, although the Adderley Brothers stuff tends to run together (IMHO).  I like Know What I Mean and Portrait of Cannonball (both with Bill Evans), as well as Somethin' Else (but more for Miles than Cannonball).  Great records?  I don't quite see that.

 

 

[JSngry]

Who are we talking about being "influenced"? Players? Maybe more than you might at first think? Bandleaders? Hell, who wouldn't want to have a band - and career - like that? The general public? The guy sold a LOT of records and touched a LOT of people (not unlike Gene Ammons).

If you're travelling down the highway of jazzplayerinfluence, yes, you will see the big bill boards of Rollins and Trane (and justly so). But behind the billboards, there's a lot more of life and people. And there's always some kind of little sign that will say "Cannonball's - GOOD FOOD! EXIT NOW".

So, you know, don't form an opinion of the town by just reading the billboards, get off the damn highway and try the local spots.

[Milestones]

Influence...a tricky thing for sure. But going back to the very first post, there is the business of Trane and Sonny always in the conversation, prominent in all the books--but Cannonball not so much.

But I give Cannonball credit for doing what the "greats" do, which is to stretch.  I'm thinking of the Zawinul influence and the move toward fusion.  And I'm now checking out this early album: Alabama Concerto.  It has Cannonball, Art Farmer, plus guitar and bass (no drums).  It owes something to Jimmy Giuffre and it's like jazz Americana.  

 

 

[felser]

My favorites are probably his sextets with Lateef and with Charles Lloyd, but I find delights in the later Capitol and even the Milestone recordings also, and in the earlier Emarcy and especially Riveside albums.  

[JSngry]

50 minutes ago, Milestones said:

But I give Cannonball credit for doing what the "greats" do, which is to stretch.  

Big Man was perhaps the ultimate stretch. I slept on it for decades, and that was my very large bad 

Stretching without vision is cool, but stretching in service of a larger vision is one of the more noble of human behaviors.

In the end, my affection and admiration for Cannonball goes beyond things like "influence", or even "music". I admire him as a human...and the fact that he just didn't take care of himself and died way too fucking soon doesn't at all take away from the magnificence of his humanity while he lived.

[John L]

The discussion on this thread reminds me of a recent conversation I had with a fine American saxophonist who married an Ethiopian woman and is now based in Addis Ababa: Jonovan Cooper.   He comes from the Coltrane school but has developed a very individual style that includes Ethiopian influences.   When I asked him who his all time favorite saxophonist is, I was a bit surprised that he immediately answered "Cannonball Adderley."   He said "Cannonball put so much supreme soulfulness in everything that he did, which is what I strive to do."      

[jazzbo]

Thanks for posting this. I hope he records, I'd like to hear this. . . Ethiopian music is very interesting--I really enjoyed hearing it when I lived in Addis.

Edited December 1, 2021 by jazzbo

[John L]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

Thanks for posting this. I hope he records, I'd like to hear this. . . Ethiopian music is very interesting--I really enjoyed hearing it when I lived in Addis.

 

[jazzbo]

Thanks. I can hear those influences. Nice.

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, John L said:

 When I asked him who his all time favorite saxophonist is, I was a bit surprised that he immediately answered "Cannonball Adderley."   He said "Cannonball put so much supreme soulfulness in everything that he did, which is what I strive to do."      

I've heard that a lot over the years. "Influence"...not just the notes you play, but the spirit you engage while playing...or when you're not playing, for that matter.

Another thing I've heard along the same lines was that Cannonball never faltered. sometimes, like on "Milestones" and KOB, he might be unsure about how to lock into the groove, but his fingers never failed him. And when, in the words of the one really aware saxophone teacher I had said - "one he decided that he needed to be Cannonball Adderley and not John Coltrane", hey, it all came together, chops, ideas, voice, and yes, personality. a personality you could build a band around, a personality you could build records around, a personality that you could put anywhere and it still speak in its own true voice.