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He's gone quiet over at his new home on substack, recently.

A first time encounter for many of them. Great listening and interplay, powerful, lyrical, dreamy. Looking forward to a recording too!

I wouldn't consider a Japanese musician "white." Doubt the original intent of the thread was to fuck with us, given Allen's decades-long exploration of ethnic/cultural identity in his work.

Not at all. But this is an area on which academic consensus is so clear that it is hardly worth debating. Those who claim that the first rock and roll record was actually 'Wig Wam Bam' by The Sweet are deluded in my view.

I never commented in this thread because I always felt it was just Allen fucking with us. I see he's managing to do it even though he's no longer posting here.

No arguments from me on that point.

I remember first reading Jack’s biography of Miles Davis at the library while I was in college and it was my favorite book about Miles in those days (early ‘90’s). Later I got my own copy and reread it many times. In later years I began to question his take on Miles’ work after 1968 and preferred other authors on the electric years (like Paul Tingen) but I still consider Jack’s book a must read.

Rolls and honey and nothing else trumps honey and a honey dipper. Neither a work of beauty.

Sounds like you've given up on the subject.

I dunno. Is it that bad? Strikes me as more BLAND than bad . . . which is often par for the course when it comes to Concord cover art. From the same photo shoot? But hey -- the MUSIC is good -- on both of these records. You really can't judge a record by its cover.

After more that a decade, I just read through this entire thread. Was surprised to find quite a few alto players that were not mentioned. Alan Barnes (British), Arne Domnerus (Swedish), Derek Humble (British), Ferdinand Povel (Dutch, plays both alto & tenor), Sadeo Watanabe (Japan), Cory Weeds (Canadian, Plays alto & tenor)

The first Rock and Roll record was 'We're Not Going to Take It', by Los Angeles-based band Twisted Sister. It is the first song to combine the core rock and roll genre characteristics of pouting, guitars and a music video where the dad gets beaten up. All other minds of music that preceded it are just pastoral shepherd flute music or Chinese opera.

Surely one of the worst album covers of all time.

Such a wonderful record. Christophe Dal Sasso with special guest David Liebman - Exploration (Nocturne FR, 2006)

If you call what he does "singing", then sure.

I I also followed that NYT recommendation, but quickly abandoned (those tedious dialogues...). Too bad, because I really loved one of his previous novels, "Measuring the World" (in which he uses the same historical reinterpretation approach).

👍 Now:

Of course it is. Rock'n'Roll may have been a name initially coined to describe R&B marketed to white audiences or R&B(-influenced music) played by white artists. But during the heyday of actual R'n'R (not just - later - "Rock") during, say, 1954 to 1959, there were both white and Black R'n'R artists, bands and sounds that all added to this mix. And of course Black music did continue to evolve outside of the R'n'R spectrum. During the R'n'R era some Black artists didn't change their style much and yet were part of the core of R'n'R - e.g. Fats Domino. And the Treniers from that video always remained themselves both in pre-R'n'R years and in their R'n'R movie appearances, etc. And yes, the Treniers would have deserved a place in the "Which Was The First Rock'n'Roll Record?" book too. Whereas the Atlantic recordings of Big Joe Turner fitted seamlessly into R'n'R, but of course he would not have had anything even remotely resembling teen appeal. So it all depends on which criteria you highlight to what extent. Like GA Russell said: It's the music on the one hand and the perception on the other. As for the presence of the tenor sax as a solo instrument as a key criterion of what constitutes R'n'R (as Dan Gould said) - I'm not convinced. The sax was very present on many BLACK R'n'R recordings but I'd see this largely as a holdover from the evolution of R&B since 1945. It was much less dominant on white R'n'R records (with the possible exception of the featured sax in certain backing bands). In general, one major facet of SELF-MADE (self-played) white R'n'R (which of course includes rockabilly as one subgenre) was the preponderance of the guitar as a solo instrument that set the general sound patterns. To an extent hitherto unheard. Not that surprising as most of the white artists came from the Country side of the two main ingredients that combined to form R'n'R. But again, I think the common consensus in all these debates of where and how R'n'R started and what makes up R'n'R has always been and still is that to qualify, no recordings will have to meet ALL criteria of music (style) and perception (image). One that did not clock up much mileage beyond the singer's or listener's bedside.