sidewinder Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 I'm interested in learning a bit more about the Danish offshoot of Mingus/Roach's Debut records, which I believe existed from the mid 1950s through to the 1960s. I'm aware that Jimmy Knepper's 'The Masher' only appeared in original form on the Danish offshoot and that the whole thing was reputedly run on even less of a shoestring than the US operation. Any background information welcome - also with regard to their releases of avant garde material from the likes of Cecil Taylor and Albert Ayler in the 1960s (no doubt these are rare?). Presumably this had nothing to do with the Mingus/Roach connection. Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Yes, I wish I knew about this label as well. I was struck listening to Ayler's earliest recordings that had originated on this label by how much they sounded in ways similar to the Mingus music of 1964 with Dolphy and Jordan. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Here's a story of Debut Records (the US-Mingus/Roach-label) that includes the following sentence on the Danish off spring: ...Danish Debut, a fan-run label which had hooked up with Mingus without his realizing that it was as much a shoe-string operation as the American label was, if not more. I did not even know the danish label had something to do with the Mingus/Roach one! The only thing I have produced by/for Debut Denmark is the Feburary 24, 1964 Ayler date (with Call Cobbs, Henry Grimes and Sunny Murray), called "Goin' Home" in its Black Lion CD incarnation. Alan Bates or maybe Barry McRae (both of whom wrote liner notes for Candid/Black Lion CD reissues) might know more, if anybody has a possibility to contact them. ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 (edited) Witches and Devils and Vibrations were also released on Debut after My Name is Albert Ayler. I had been thinking that the "First Sessions" lps had appeared on Debut, but I guess not. Those sessions are amazing! These first recordings are the ones that remind me of the 1964 Mingus in part. Edited January 3, 2004 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Witches and Devils and Vibrations were also released on Debut after My Name is Albert Ayler. I had been thinking that the "First Sessions" lps had appeared on Debut, but I guess not. Those sessions are amazing! These first recordings are the ones that remind me of the 1964 Mingus in part. I don't know about the First Sessions - I don't have them. I might try to write Ayler records an email. Mayber somebody there is so kind as to provide some information on Debut DK. ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted January 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 (edited) One other one :- Cecil Taylor's 'Live At The Cafe Montmatre' with Jimmy Lyons and Arthur Murray was put out by Danish Debut as DEB 138. I assume that this was the first issue of this session? As an aside, I have an old LP copy of the 'Jazz At Massey Hall' concert which turns out to be the Danish Debut issue. Approximate date is 1958/59. Cover sleeve design is nothing like the US Debut 12" LP (DEB 124). Edited January 3, 2004 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Debut Denmark released some 50 albums before they went out of business. Among the ones I have are: - Cecil Taylor 'Live at Cafe Montmartre' Debut deb-138 - Albert Ayler 'My Name Is Albert Ayler' Debut deb-140 - The Contemporary Jazz Quartet feat. Sonny Murray 'Action' Debut deb-143 - Albert Ayler 'Ghosts' Debut deb-144 - Albert Ayler 'Spirits' Debut deb-146, - Paul Bley 'Touching' Debut deb-147 - Cecil Taylor 'Nefertiti, the Beautiful One Has Come' Debut deb-148 (for the cover of that album the gracious Dutch artist Marte Roling ungraciously - and without asking for authorisation - used a photo I had taken of Cecil Taylor which had been published in a French jazz review) Some others that Danish Debut released were: - 131 Essen Jazz Festival (Coleman Hawkins-BudPowell-Oscar Pettiford-Kenny Clarke) - 132 Oscar Pettiford 'My Little Cello' - 136 Eric Dolphy in Europe (that came out elsewhere as 'Last Date') - 137 Brew Moore in Europe (with Lars Gullin and Sahib Shihab) - 139 Charles Mingus 'Chazz The Charles Mingus Quintet) - 141 Sahib Shihab 'Sahib's Jazz Party' - 142 Don Byas '30th Anniversary Album' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Here's a story of Debut Records (the US-Mingus/Roach-label) that includes the following sentence on the Danish off spring: ...Danish Debut, a fan-run label which had hooked up with Mingus without his realizing that it was as much a shoe-string operation as the American label was, if not more. I did not even know the danish label had something to do with the Mingus/Roach one! Nor did I. I knew of the Fantasy issues of the Essen, Taylor & My Name Is Ayler sides w/the Debut imprint, but had no idea that there was a "real" connection. Just figured it was a business deal with the name (if that makes any sense). Anybody capable of elaborating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Nor did I. I knew of the Fantasy issues of the Essen, Taylor & My Name Is Ayler sides w/the Debut imprint, but had no idea that there was a "real" connection. Just figured it was a business deal with the name (if that makes any sense). Anybody capable of elaborating? From what I understand Debut Denmark was independent from the US Debut label. It seems to have been a business exchange only. When Debut Denmark folded, the business seems to have been taken over by Fontana from Holland. Fontana issued albums by Paul Bley, Marion Brown, the Jazz Composers Orchestra, Ted Curson, George Russell right after Debut folded. And they reissued Albert Ayler's album 'Spirits' on Fontana! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Thanks, Brownie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted January 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 (edited) Thanks for the list, Brownie. I recognise most of those Fontana titles as the ones which came out with the nice Marte Roling cover art. I think there's also the Dollar Brand 'Anatomy Of An African Village' as part of this grouping. Edited January 4, 2004 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Thanks for the list, Brownie. I recognise most of those Fontana titles as the ones which came out with the nice Marte Roling cover art. I think there's also the Dollar Brand 'Diary Of An African Village' as part of this grouping. I have mixed feelings about Marte Roling. Not only did she 'borrow' one of my photos of Cecil Taylor for her cover sketch of the Debut album 'Nefertiti' but she deliberatedly used another one of my published photod of Marion Brown for her cover sketch of the Marion Brown's 'Juba-Lee' for Fontana. That one was an exact replica of a photo of Marion that accompanied one of my articles. That said, I like her cover art. It also happens that I met her before she started drawing covers for record albums. She was in Paris in the mid-sixties to do sketches at fashion shows for a daily newspaper. Either Amsterdam's De Telegraaf or The New York Times, don't recall for sure. She walked into the offices of the photo agency where I work to have several sketches transmitted to her newspaper. A very nice person! Several months later I found she was doing those jazz record albums covers and borrowing from published photos to complete her job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 Thanks for the insight, brownie. Now BlackLion/1201music/DAmusic are involved with that stuff, too... rather chaotic, I must admit! Dollar Brand's "Anatomy..." and another one were also on Blacklion CDs. Was all that Montmartre stuff on Debut first`? The Ben Websters, the Dexters? ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 The Webster, Gordon albums from the Montmartre first appeared on the Black Lion label. I think the first albums that Debut Denmark released came from the Mingus-Roach Debut label. There were for instance: Debut 120 - Miles Davis 'Blue Moods' Debut 124 - Jazz at Massey Hall (the Quintet album) The 'Jazz Albums Covers, The Rare and the Beautiful' book by Manek Daver that was published in Japan in 1994 (with cover by Gil Melle and foreword by Norman Granz, no less!) has several samples of the Danish Debut albums. Not listed in my previous post are the following: - three 7-inchers (all from Debut US material) Debut 101 - Jimmy Knepper Quintet, Debut 102 - The New Oscar Pettiford Sextet, Debut 103 - Max Roach Quartet, - plus these four Danish free jazz 12-inchers Debut 133 - Bent Axden-Bent Jaedig 'Let's Keep the Message', Debut 134 - Jorn Elniff 'Music for Mice and Men', Debut 135 - Louis Hjulmand-Allan Botschinsky 'Blue Bros', Debut 150 - Palle Mikkelborg 'The Mysterious Corona' (a 4-track stereo release) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 Seems only recordings NOT bought by Fantasy were reissued on Black Lion, but not all of them (the stuff by lesser known Scandinavian musicians being the exceptions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 brownie-- Thanks for the info on Marte Roling and Fontana... a friend and I are working on a pictorial discography of her covers, but we know little about her (she's still working as an artist, but no contact info has been found). Cheers, C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted January 19, 2004 Report Share Posted January 19, 2004 (edited) Clifford - do you have a working list of these sleeves which you can let us have - or do we have to wait for the final reckoning? I would be interested to see the list if you feel able to post it. Edited January 19, 2004 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Seems only recordings NOT bought by Fantasy were reissued on Black Lion, but not all of them (the stuff by lesser known Scandinavian musicians being the exceptions). Lots of confusion here. Alan Bates (English record producer) bought the Debut catalog in the '60s. He had a deal with Fontana to issue his stuff. As mergers progressed the lps started to show up on Polydor along with original Bates recordings (Dexter, Webster, Bud, etc). Bates eventually consolidated his holdings as Black Lion and Freedom. In the early cd era he got in financial trouble and was forced to sell/forfeit the masters to a German outfit operating as DA Music. DA is currently leasing masters to something marketed as 1201 Music in the US. Bates/Black Lion/Freedom did issue all the European sourced Fantasy issues and a bunch more. Alan Bates managed to hold on to the Candid catalog and operates it today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Seems only recordings NOT bought by Fantasy were reissued on Black Lion, but not all of them (the stuff by lesser known Scandinavian musicians being the exceptions). Lots of confusion here. Alan Bates (English record producer) bought the Debut catalog in the '60s. He had a deal with Fontana to issue his stuff. As mergers progressed the lps started to show up on Polydor along with original Bates recordings (Dexter, Webster, Bud, etc). Bates eventually consolidated his holdings as Black Lion and Freedom. In the early cd era he got in financial trouble and was forced to sell/forfeit the masters to a German outfit operating as DA Music. DA is currently leasing masters to something marketed as 1201 Music in the US. Bates/Black Lion/Freedom did issue all the European sourced Fantasy issues and a bunch more. Alan Bates managed to hold on to the Candid catalog and operates it today. Chuck, Bates did lease some Candid stuff, too, didn't he? German ZYX did produce Candid CDs, and more recently TIM/Past Perfect had (still has, actually) Candid CDs on the market. Those 1201 releases show up here, too, but very expensive. They seem generally to be better remastered than DA's Black Lion CDs, no? ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Clifford - do you have a working list of these sleeves which you can let us have - or do we have to wait for the final reckoning? I would be interested to see the list if you feel able to post it. Well, I can post the list (numbers, anyway) when I have access to my home computer. However, we're still waiting on good scans of the Dewey Redman and Rod Levitt LPs before we post the pictorial discography online with, hopefully, a little more correct info on Ms. Roling and the whole bit. Any additions would, of course, be much appreciated. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Here are the titles for the Roling series... I'll post the link when it's all done. Albert Ayler "Spirits" (unissued?) Carla Bley-Mike Mantler "Jazz Realities" Paul Bley "Touching" Paul Bley "Blood" Dollar Brand "Anatomy of a South African Village" Marion Brown "Juba-Lee" Ted Curson "Urge" Ted Curson-Bill Barron "Tears for Dolphy" Jazz Composers' Orchestra "Communication" Rod Levitt "Dynamic Sound Patterns" (unissued?) New York Art Quartet "Mohawk" New York Contemporary Five "Consequences" Dewey Redman "Look for the Black Star" George Russell "The Outer View" Archie Shepp-John Tchicai "Rufus" Cecil Taylor "Nefertiti, the Beautiful One Has Come" Any additons/corrections? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 (edited) Marte Roling Fontanas I realized I never posted the link to this... so here it is. Any more info would be greatly appreciated - the Spirits session is the most confusing: never seen an actual copy in this configuration, and its proposed catalog number is the same as that used for Ghosts (Debut/Fontana). Brownie, do you have a copy of the Marte Roling Spirits? Admittedly found this old thread googling Danish Debut because I really want DEB-138! That said, I don't want to pay $300 for it either, so probably will have to go without... (or, continue limping along on a Fantasy pressing) Edited January 26, 2006 by clifford_thornton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Brownie, do you have a copy of the Marte Roling Spirits? No, I have the original Debut release with the very nice Nina Aae sketch. Not sure the LP with the Marte Roling ever came out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Yeah, I suspect that as well. As for Spirits, only seen the Debut and Transatlantic versions (the latter is what I have)... Though it took some searching, the Rod Levitt has been found - only one copy I've ever seen record of in this version! Not that Rod Levitt is that hot, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 So how much does one have to pay for a copy of the Fontana issue of "Tears for Dolphy", or a Japansese reissue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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