JETman

"aren't all of us weird jazz geeks?" NO

http://allmusic.com/album/convergence-r182507

Beautiful sound. I sure hope he doesn't lose that. It's one of the best. I also like his harmonic ideas. I don't always go for tenor players running chords and I think George does more than that. He's a thinker. Sometimes working things out somewhat is a viable approach. With that approach when one is inspired there are options. He was pretty inspired IMO on his solo on Dolphin Dance. Very well worth studying. You also can tell a guy's good when he's exposed, and on the duet record he made with---I think---Tete Montelu (sp?) he's right out there and it holds up beautifully. I remember a wise statement by Eddie Harris in a radio interview. He said something like 'you wanna hear where a tenor player's really at? Pan down the rhythm section and see if you still can pat your foot to him.' The duet record, called "Convergence" (from 1990) is with the wonderful Richie Beirach.

I think he's saying that Miles was famous before either one of those guys even got started. If so he's right. The inference being that Miles should have gotten a stamp long before Elvis or MJ did. Btw, that Jack Johnson cover is my favorite photo of the man. It just oozes cool. Not to make a big deal, but Elvis was famous in 1956. In 1956, Miles was much less of a star. He was playing clubs and was known in the jazz world, but not to music audiences in general. Maybe so, but Elvis was less famous in the center of the universe.

I think he's saying that Miles was famous before either one of those guys even got started. If so he's right. The inference being that Miles should have gotten a stamp long before Elvis or MJ did. Btw, that Jack Johnson cover is my favorite photo of the man. It just oozes cool.

I believe his name is Cliff PREISS, otherwise known as Phil Schaap's mini-me. He was the jazz buyer at the Virgin Mega-Store in Times Square, and has written his share of liner notes for Verve cd reissues. thank you, sir. among all the kcr hosts, cliff is my favorite, and can usually be counted on for some lovely keyboard selections for his sometimes friday night shows. cliff has little in common with phil, that i discern. Different in some ways, not so much in others. Cliff is introverted to the point of it being painful to witness -- Phil is extroverted (also to the point of it being painful to witness, though). But they are both pasty white guys who are the living epitome of jazz nerdiness.

I believe his name is Cliff PREISS, otherwise known as Phil Schaap's mini-me. He was the jazz buyer at the Virgin Mega-Store in Times Square, and has written his share of liner notes for Verve cd reissues.

On that note, I'm certain that most of the ESP catalogue sucks, and that many of all y'all pretend to like it (could it ever possibly be likable, after all?) because it's cool to be different. Ya know? That's rubbish dude. You mean we only pretend to like: Albert Ayler, Marion Brown, Noah Howard, Ran Blake, Sun Ra, Milford Graves, Frank Wright, Charles Tyler, Sonny Simmons, and on. When you say, "I'm certain that most of the ESP catalogue sucks...", it sounds to me like you haven't actually listened to any of this music. Go listen, then discuss. In light of all of the posts preceding mine, I'm surprised that you don't get the irony! I guess that not all Astorians were created equal. You must be from Lawn Geyeland, your irony is too subtle for this Steinway kid. But I'm glad to hear it was ironic. Yes, I always noticed that Steinway kids (I attended Steinway JHS, btw) were a little too rough around the edges for my particular taste. Subtlety has always been my preferred m.o. Btw, all people from Brooklyn and Queens are from Long Island. So, therefore, are you.

I am a Marxist...the word has a very specific meaning for me and that is why I used it. From a sociological perspective, the music on ECM tends towards bourgeois affectations. Of course, the vast majority of jazz listeners are in the upper/middle classes (and that's one of the biggest problems with the music today), but with ECM you see a refinement of product specifically aiming to appeal to middle brow tastes. In the case of the other labels I mentioned, that is much less the case, unless you think, in the case of Leo, for instance, that there's a large middle class market out there anxious to devour Soviet experimental jazz. Now, a lot of you might find this kind of shorthand sociological analysis pretentious, but I don't really care. It's a more interesting topic of discussion for me than the vapid threads on product accumulation that take up most of the bandwidth on this site. Ouch! All I can say is that your predisposed notions are causing you to miss out on the enjoyment of some very fine music. Let me add that nobody (not even the Soviets) is anxious to devour anything Soviet.

On that note, I'm certain that most of the ESP catalogue sucks, and that many of all y'all pretend to like it (could it ever possibly be likable, after all?) because it's cool to be different. Ya know? That's rubbish dude. You mean we only pretend to like: Albert Ayler, Marion Brown, Noah Howard, Ran Blake, Sun Ra, Milford Graves, Frank Wright, Charles Tyler, Sonny Simmons, and on. When you say, "I'm certain that most of the ESP catalogue sucks...", it sounds to me like you haven't actually listened to any of this music. Go listen, then discuss. In light of all of the posts preceding mine, I'm surprised that you don't get the irony! I guess that not all Astorians were created equal.

On that note, I'm certain that most of the ESP catalogue sucks, and that many of all y'all pretend to like it (could it ever possibly be likable, after all?) because it's cool to be different. Ya know?

Dude, I think you should start another thread

Those couple he made for RCA at Mr. Coleman's urging were kind of 'eh'.

I don't know how much this will apply to the two records in question, but on the most recent Motian album (which I liked a lot) there was a highly unrepresentative selection of performances, tilted toward (surprise surprise) ballad tempos. So the ECM aesthetic, whatever you feel about it, can sneak into live recordings too. That was NOT the ECM aesthetic. That was the Motian aesthetic.

You want producers that force American jazzers to record things they do not necessarily want to record? Try Teekens at Criss Cross or Tetsuo Hara (in conjunction with an American, Todd Barkan) of Venus Records to name just two. Manfred Eicher exists on a whole other plane --- adventurous, probing, always looking for something new. These other producers are just looking to recreate Blue Note's glory days. Now, THAT's boring.

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded. Close minded? Listen to the difference between Marilyn Crispell on ECM versus Marilyn Crispell on other labels and for other projects. It's staggering. Do you honestly believe that an artist of Crispell's stature is in someway manipulated to produce work she'd rather not so it can be released on ECM? I hope not ,because that shows very little respect indeed for an artist which your other statements suggest you admire. Maybe she wants to record in the style she does for ECM? is that a possibility beyond your view? I, for one appreciate her recordings for ECM and other labels. As for the Parker/Mitchell - I've struggled to really enjoy the Mitchell (which has a line-up that i could take to a desert island) only because i find the first piece really doesn't stimulate me and puts a 'drag' on the rest of the album (I'm sure this is discussed on another thread elswhere). Maybe i should start at track two. The Parker I haven't done justice to, listened a couple of times and shelved it which suggests it didn't grab me straight off. I've noted the comments that it's a recording that reveals itself over several listens so will use this thread as aspur to revisit. Anyone got an antidote for Eicher's poison? It'd save me a lot of money..... I don't think Crispell is being manipulated. I just think her work becomes A LOT less interesting on ECM, and I happen to notice that the work of many artists becomes less interesting once they reach ECM. Isn't this the label that basically keeps trying to recreate the ambience of In A Silent Way? It gets old after awhile. I've heard a lot of "strange" statements in my life, but this one is truly bizarre...? As already mentioned in this thread and of course everywhere else, ECM's contribution to contemporary Jazz aesthetic, the development of the Jazz Art Form, the individual admancement of hundreds of Jazz Artists and many, many other virtues attributed to ECM and its owner are beyond discussion. I have witnessed the birth of the label from day one, followed it closely for over 40 years now, both on a personal and professional level and I must say that although many independent Jazz labels are crucially important, none of them comes close to ECM on any level. Of course I can understand that some American Jazz fans have trouble admitting that a non-American Jazz activity could overshadow everything done by American Jazz, but hey, that is a fact.... This is really unintentionally funny to me. I have almost no interest in "American jazz" today, just as I have almost no interest in most of the music being put out by ECM. If you asked me to name the most vital jazz labels of the last 40 years, I'd put FMP number one, easily, and then after them probably Black Saint/Soul Note and Leo. Notice that NONE of those are American labels. So your lazy assumptions are completely off base. Also to everyone who keeps repeating my use of the word "poison," please note that in my original post I noted that I was engaging in rhetorical excess. Obviously ECM does not "poison" everything. I like some of their recordings, even. But if I see that a player like Evan Parker or Roscoe Mitchell is on ECM, I become wary. And that's through experience with too many polished works that represent, for me, the musical embodiment of the worst excesses of the Baby Boomer narcissism that is the New Age movement. It's just all so very, very bourgeois. Your statements get more and more insane as we go along. Didn't realize the air was so fucking thick upstate!

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded. Good to know that we have received THE WORD. Once you rise above the need to place labels on music, you'll realize that no other record label out there has lasted as long as ECM has on the international stage with as much success. And remember, great players do not always record great albums. Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded. Close minded? Listen to the difference between Marilyn Crispell on ECM versus Marilyn Crispell on other labels and for other projects. It's staggering. Is that really the best that you can do?

Eicher does NOT twist great players' arms so that they record music they do NOT want to record. I spoke to Abercrombie about this very subject about a month ago. He lives in my neck of the woods, and I run into him occasionally. Get over the ECM bashing already. It is old and extremely close-minded.

This was out as a TOCJ in the mid-nineties. I should know; I have it.

cc's a pitcher and plays only 1 out of every 5 games. Different situation.

You're talking about a horizontal ride. I suspect his trip is more vertical.

How sweet of you, Dan!!! Sticking up for one of your West Coast jazz brothers. You should be nominated for sainthood And, YES it is. College is about learning, not about sports. Teaching the tough guy mentality to our "youts" has gone on for far too long. Where has it gotten us??? Chest bumping and bad ass talk in the NBA, shooting guns in the NFL, and so on. If you don't get it, then you're more far gone than I thought.

Dare I say that if Eli gives it to Brady again, his induction into the HoF is all but guaranteed.

And as I asked you in those other threads... name these "offenses", or kindly STFU. Read my last post, westie!

Send Cuscuna an email; he'll respond. I'm afraid one of the bigger issues is not how important the artist is, but how to organize and handle the legal manipulations of cross-label material.