P.D.

Regarding Thad Jones quoting PGTW on April In Paris.... I heard they had done MANY takes of the tune, and I'm sure Thad was trying to do something different each time on his solo. Out of the blue he plays the quote, and wouldn't you know it, that take ended up being the keeper. He was then obliged (I'm sure to his chagrin) to recreate it in subsequent live performances, and most anyone who plays the solo on that arrangement today plays that same quote. And it's no longer fresh or clever. One thing that's interesting is that many trumpet players don't know that it was Thad who originally did it. I think what makes this particular quote (and most quotes) seem a little tired is not the original effort, but the thousands of times it's been repeated since. As I said before, it's about being spontaneous. The effectiveness (and humor) fades with excessive repetition. BTW, isn't "stupid musician tricks" a regular segment on Letterman? You got there before me.. but the problem in this case is that " April" became a hit.. and everyone, except presumably we "knowlegable " Jazz fans wanted to hear Thad pop it in, just as much as the arrangement had to have the 'fake' finishes.. without these two aspects, Basie and April just don't seem quite right. If you have the Basie " Roulette" Live Mosaic, you can pull up an April track where obviously Thad is trying to dump the Weasel.. he quotes Frankie and Johnny.. it goes over like the proverbial lead balloon. Quotes can be great, clever and funny, but also dumb, silly and boring. Like most things in jazz.. all possibilities are there.

O.K but how about the Freshmen........

"elsewhere" has been updated.. would have been there 2 hours ago, but a friend came over and I got distracted.. think that's the word for it...

EKE.. I knew you would get the reference Francois.. O.K. I was thinking in terms of recordings where LA solos with the Orchestra..also not including the recordings with singers like Coot Grant etc. where the group was a small contingent from the FH Orchestra.. these are, I suspect outside the realm of Clunky's question about Henderson. If such recordings qualify, then the list seems to miss The Trixie Smith You've got to beat me Mining Camp Blues and Clara Smith recordings, Shipwrecked Court House My John which had Satch on them and Fletcher on piano. There may be others, but I have to admit there are more recordings of LA with Fletcher than my memory gave credit to.

Have you seen this I think you might like it.. she lists a lot of blues lyrics from Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith recordings. I'm not sure I get, or go along with all the " political" associations she makes, but it's an interesting addition to the library. It's showing up on the cut out shelves at the local cheap book, Bookstores for about $5-7.00

This is one of the problems that we have discussing the innovators in Jazz to newcomers to the scene. Your " Chicken Shack" example is exactly what happens. Someone creates something, others follow and to those who weren't in on the beginning, it all sounds relatively tame Wes is a good example.. when he started those octave solos everyone did the "wow" thing.. now there's people pulling our octave licks in their bedrooms on $99.00 Suires that they got for Christmas. ( well yeah they're probably trying to be Jimi.. but similar argument) I remember trying to play some Bird to a newcomer to jazz and express the importance of Bird in the scheme of things, but was told that nothing sounded original, He'd " heard it all before".. hell there's not many sax players not throwing in a bit of Bird somewhere.. even in TV commercials.. on top of which the recording quality just made the records ( probably a Dial or a Savoy) too hard to listen to. Ask the guy how old he is.. and how deep he's into the music.. I suspect both will reflect low numbers.

EKE covered this well.. I agree on the Classics they're fine.. but I started listening to Jazz when the main media was 78rpm, and a hand cranked record player.. so perhaps I'm more tolerant, especially when it's music fom thepre LP era. Classics is still the only way to "get it all".. except for alts.. then there's Neatwork as Chuck has pointed out. I like just about all of Hendersons recordings, there is always something interesting in the arrangements, and a great place to hear the development of Coleman Hawkins. Listing Pres as one of Henderson's musicians is a bit of a stretch.. he didn't last long due to Mrs. Henderson's tutorials Also this seems a bit of a stretch for a the title of a 3 CD set Louis with Fletcher Henderson (1924-25) 3-CD set Forte F-38001/2/3 They must be very short CDs if they only feature the recordings Satch did with Fletcher, ( kinda sounds like a Lonehill title ), but at the minimum I would think a solid 3CD set deserves to be in anyones collection.

Ok but they weren't VSP's but they were budget verves Buddy Rich & Gene Krupa, The Drum Battle verve 815 146 Ella Fitzgerald verve 815 147 The Coleman Hawkins Set verve 815 148 The Rarest Concerts verve 815 149 Bird & Pres Carnegie Hall 1949 verve 815 150 Norgran Blues verve 815 151 The Trumpet Battle 1952 verve 815 152 One O'Clock Jump 1953 verve 815 153 The Challenges 1954 verve 815 154 Blues in Chicago verve 815 155 my mind tells me I might have an Oscar Peterson set too. None of this was in the JATP box None has seen CD as far as I know ( usual Japanese disclaimer) Put together this would be a nice second JATP box as long as the packaging wasn't so stupid and verve didn't gouge us by putting it on 10 CDS 6 or 7 would probably suffice.. umless there is much unissued material.. which there should be,, These weren't 40 min concerts. I can pull the albums and give track / personnel details if anyone needs them. I know I don't have the Ella, but might have the Krupa / Rich.. in spite of the interminable drum solos.

Most of this stuff if not all ( the Brigette Bardot excepted) has I think only shown up on LP. The VSP sets. It certainly is time for the 10(?) LPs that came out on verve, and the Stockholm sets to be reissued via CD.. but I'd be interested in knowing what other than the BB, which was on a Herb Ellis CD, has seen digital issue.

Sorry.. I was still in the James / Krupa mode... the two threads seem to be running in the same direction. I didn't know the " Big Bands" had been dropped, though someone here did say that the Freddie Slack Select was a set of music that had been prepared for the Capitol set. I'm a bit, and always was, a bit ambivalent about what was going to be in the Capitol Big Band set.. Charle Barnet, Ray Anthony?.. a lot of music that in my Jazz world ( which I assure you is quite extensive) was a bit borderline to warrant a Mosaic. It will be interesting to see the response to the Slack, once it's released.. I am sure many Mosaic devotees will "rave" about it, but I'll bet that it's reception will border on being the Select version of the Hackett or the Four Freshman.

Granz didn't stop recording jam sessions for Verve, he just started giving the sessions names like Sittin' In, Jazz Giants of '58, Tour de Force, etc. Well I more or less agree with you Chuck, as I have these albums, but somehow to me at least, they seem to be a different sort of animal to the more "deliberate" jam session atmosphere of those under discussion in the upcoming set. Sittin In I like a lot.. Hawk, Getz and Paul Gonsalves... nice contrasting group of tenor players.

While this is listed in Lord as being a Granz Jam session, the small band line up would somehow make it less than the usual approach to these recordings. Also it was recorded three years after the last studio jam session. Granz semed to give up on those until his Pablo days Perhaps it doesn't exist anymore or I think it would have been in the complete verve Pres box, which did seem to be a serious attempt at a "Complete" Pres. The 5 disc approach would seem to be an attempt to have one recording session per disc.

Has to be the usual reason... Either the set has sold so well that the # 7500 is soon to go.. or the time limit is coming up... or.. perish the thought.. but could the feeding frenzy that develops when a set is put on the endangered list cause them to list sets that way to create a Pavlovian response.. Nah this is Mosaic... now if it were verve...........

This makes for a total of EIGHT unopened Mosaics from three months ago? Surprised to see this thread re surface... Just a point on unopened Mosaics. It seems lately their QC hasn't been as good as usual. I ordered a Select Paul Chambers for a friend, and the booklets were incorrect.. two for disc #2, missing disc booklet #3 Worse though, My Jackie McClean set.. I had single BN discs of this and it was a while before I realised that the mosaic had been sent with two discs #2.. Disc #3 was missing. By the time I contacted Mosaic, it was too late to get a replacement. A funny one from years ago was the Monk Black Lion.. the music was distinctly not Monk.. it turned out that the disc manufacturer had put Mosaic labels on some Erroll Garners ( I think they were Old Savoy recordings.. very bad sound). This had not happened to the whole Monk batch, just part of it.. Obviously Mosaic put it right.. but had I not checked the discs I might have been stuck up in Erroll's room.... Most of the serious errors like the recent Farmer / Golson set get caught and taken care of, but individual packaging errors like above can be overlooked if you don't inspect your sets. I would recommend checking your sets on reciept for errors such as these.

Or this one at Worlds Records Chronogical Classics none of the lists I've found give discographical details, but this one does give track listing and some idea of the musicians involved, if you click on the specific disc of interest.

Guess others were "simo posting" Couw's lis is correct, except Diz is absent on Jammin for Clef ( I got Rhythm) and Rose Room.. but is there for the other pieces recorded that day. Montg Are these on par in terms of quality with the Columbia Buck Clayton jam sessions?(the only comparison I have to go by) Not in my opinion, the Clayton's are more organised.. seems a dumb thing to say for a "Jam " session, but there is interplay, swapped choruses etc. in the Claytons, while the Granz's are mostly as I said above.. theme, solos, theme. However they are worth having, don't let this comment put you off. The musicians in the Granz offerering are obviously "bigger" stars than the Claytons. You might want to seek out the Ocium disc.. Lets Split which will give you Rose Room and Jammin' at Clef, combined with Jazz Studio one.. a smaller band.. Joe Newman, Bennie Green, Paul Quinicette, Frank Foster, Hank Jones, Johnny Smith, Ed Jones and Kenny Clarke playing Tenderley, Let's Split.. a much more satisfying set than much of the Granz's inspite of the players involved.

5cds is overdoing it a bit ( we've discussed this before) The music would fit onto 3cds.. There were four sessions in total, that were released as 9lps. Some of the tracks are short in time .. 8 or 11 mins, but each were issued as full lp sides. The first session had Charlie Shavers, Charlie Parker, Benny Carter, Johnny Hodges, Flip Phillips, Ben Webster, Oscar Peterson, Barney Kessel, Ray Brown and J.C. Heard This is the Funky Blues set that produce 4 tracks ( 3 pieces plus a ballad medeley) that has been reissued often in Charlie Parker compilations. Also recently on a Past Perfect Cd available from Daedalus for about $6.00 The second date. LP sessions 3 & 4 are commonly referred to as the Basie sets. Harry Edison, Buddy DeFranco, Willie Smith, Benny Carter, Waqrdell Gray, Stan Getz, Basie, Freddie Green, John Simmons and Buddy Rich Again 4 tracks one of which is again a Ballad set. Basie plays organ on one track and Arnold Ross joins in on piano. Basie sits out on the ballads leaving the piano to Ross Ocium put this out recently.. the first CD release ( Japanese disclaimer..) The next session produced four pieces plus another ballad set ( did Norman create that concept.. he certainly liked it..? Roy Eldridge, Johnny Hodges , Ben Webster, Illinois Jacquet, Flip Phillips, Lionel Hampyom, Oscar Peterson, Ray Brown and Buddy Rich do two tunes and then Dizzy Gillespie joins in for the rest Ocium put the tracks without Dizzy on a CD that they filled out with Jazz Studio One a great record but totaly unrelated to the Granz sets The last session Diz, Roy, Bill Harris, Buddy DeFranco, Flip Phillips with Oscar, Ray and Louis Bellson cut three pieces A long Stompin' at the Savoy , which was split into two pieces and issued as two sides of a single LP. The track however can comfortably be fit into the 20 mins that became something of a standard later. A British reissue of this track, re-spliced the parts together.. quite well.. I see by the verve list that it is offered in two parts.. I wonder if verve had the original tapes and are giving us an unedited performance, or are they just LPr'ing it here.. I hope not. the music is typical of JATP, but in a studio setting.. a bit more reseved than when an audience was present Tunes tend to be theme, strings of solos, theme.. little exchanges etc. Often not quite up to what one would expect from the participants, but worth having At the price.. i'e. the pre order price, it's not such a bad deal, especially if you don't own 1&2 ( the Parkers) already.. at the list price.. I'll wait to Ocium completes their series, although the verve booklet.. if there is one might be a pleasant thing to have.

Just to straighten this out. Tje original recordings were off mike in places etc, and Duke rerecorded some tracks in the studio for better sound reasons ( in most cases) and these were used on the original album. The new 2cd set was taken from VOA broadcast tapes that were found much later and you get the whole concert as recorded ( the only way to go for D&C) plus the studio tracks.

You should invest in theJSP.. ( I have all the Classics too), and I'm not particularily an Audiophile.. but the collection is first class, and the extra music is really worthwhile... I'll take all the Red I can get

EKE.. you should visit the other joint a bit more often The greatest recording debut.

These were originally made for the Douglas label ( I believe), but seem to be somehow in the " public domain" from the variety of bootlegs etc that have and do exist. Excellent Dolphy though and necessary if you are into Eric. I think there were 9 tracks in total from these sessions.. some of the issues collide with each other, and some erroniouslyclaim unissued tracks to be included that most often are Stormy Weather from a Mingus date, and some Chico Hamilton tracks. The latter sound way out of place when tacked onto the Iron Man / Music Matador sets.

According to Lord, the Muse was the only issue of this. Mine is on Muse, bought with split cover from a used bin after much searching for it. I was on a complete CDr CBBB mission at the time. I don't think it has ever been on CD, though there appears to be some activity in Europe with CBBB releases lately, maybe it will come.

Simply there for your edification

I have some feelings that " Cat Meets Chick" should not be in this set.. it is available on a collectables... but thats not the reason. I would have preferred a complete Rushing Columbia set.. granted most is available on CD in one form or another, except for the Smith girls and the tracks with Helen Humes that appeared on the 2LP set. There may be more unissued. A full set of unissued Braff from this period will be welcome, especially if it's from the Epic " Braff" dates.

I was only making an assumption here, but Songs for Swingers should be included in a title like this, plus the list of artists that were given.