mikeweil

which one? "clave" or "hybrid theory"?

Clave is the Spanish word for key, not in the sense of a tonal key, but the one you use for opening a lock; it also means the key of a keyboard, or the wooden pegs used on sea vessels to tie the ropes to. I always suspected the use of that Spanish term for two wooden sticks that are beaten together to generate rhythmic patterns might have dvelopped when African slaves used these pegs to beat out rhythms on the slave ships. In Afro-Cuban music, it means a specific pattern, or rather a family of rhythmic patterns which define a rhythmic cycle - practically all non-Western music is cyclic in nature, only European classical music developped concepts of playing music without the use of repetitive rhythmic patterns, or only in dance music. To notate that pattern always is an approximation - I had many discussion with my drum maker about this, and he passed this on to an ethnomusicologist in Berlin, who wrote his master thesis on the Cuban Rumba. He did measurements of the position of all the five strokes in a clave pattern relative to a metronomic beat, and found that they do not fall on exact places of the elementary pulsation like eight notes, or sixteenth notes, or triplets, but fall between these grids to enable approximations to any of these. There is very interesting research on the cognitive processes by which African and African-American players achieve this flexible playing with patterns. Other than deus62, I would say it is only a pain in the ass when you stubbornly stick to Western concepts of playing - you have to learn and practice how to play in overlapping parallel patterns instead of linear beats.

There are methods to notate rhythmic structures and patterns that have been developped by ethnomusicologists, based on the concepts of beat and elementary pulsation dividing the beat, that would allow such things, but I'm afraid it would look very complicated and not be very easy to read. And it would take a sophisticated graphics software like FreeHand (from Adobe) to do that. If you accept the equation of a triplet with a straight quarter note that is very much in common in jazz books, it could be done, but I think the problem would be more that jazz players tend to structure rhythm in a linear fashion similar to Western European classical music, whereas music based on the clave and other African-American music, in fact most non-Western music, is cyclic in nature, a rhythmic concept not common to most jazz players, who have to learn how to interlock with other players in a primarily rhythmic way. Or are you talking about the simpler problem of how to exactly write down a clave pattern in a swing-type phrasing with a triplet feel? That could be done with standard Western notation.

This has been suggested here several times - I'd go for it without hesitation! (although I like what I've heard of the Latin Jazz sides better than the straightahead .

Michael Cuscuna stated in his notes to the Mosaic box set that Alfred Lion couldn't remember the exact reason why "Back To The Tracks" was not released - it had an issue number, a cover design made and was advertised. He thought so many things were happening in those days. "Minor Move", I think, was not released due to the hiss in the ride cymbal - Rudy Van Gelder had recorded at too high a level. Brooks not really being a presence on the scene and thus not really being able to promote his albums may have been a reason. Lion skipped albums by artists after they had dropped off the scene or died, i.e. Leo Parker, Ike Quebec, Sonny Clark ... But many Blue Note artists were recorded more often than they could release on a realistic level.

Happy belated birthday and a million thanks for this great place! Long live the Big Chief! I couldn't help but salute you as a big chief - no idea why, but this kept lingering in my mind while reading through this thread ... would be a great number for the trio, too!

Just like the German proverb: "one's owl is the other's nightingale"!

Go ahead, please!

Ah, those commercial considerations ..... that's why I love albums that start with medium or even slow numbers. Same with live gigs. Play a heavy number to catch the audience and make them shut up.

I think way too much has been made of this, as often is the case - most people look for the spectacular, especially with individualists like Miles and Monk. IMO the musical differences, which are the root of Miles complaining about Monk's comping, are much more important.

Peter Keepnews gives a similar view of things in his notes to the Prestige Monk box set, quoting the sames remarks by Miles and Monk about what would have happened if Miles had hit Monk - even Miles in his autobiography admitted he would have been crazy to do that. Keepnews also assumes the personnel may have been Bob Weinstock's idea, at least in part. I doubt Miles would have hired Monk. Miles and the complete MJQ, that would have been a great idea. But Miles and Monk ..... Of course, both are playing great stuff on this session, but as I stated, their musical concepts are so different ... and Miles' big ego and Monk's stoicism were a dangerous combination. Monk was deeply rooted in the Harlem stride tradition, and I don't hear much of that in Miles.

Was that one taken at the session with Monk?

RON CARTER/HERBIE HANCOCK/TONY WILLIAMS Third Plane OJCCD-754-2 (Milestone 9105) ~ $11.98 It seems the other album, 1 + 3 is not in print at the moment.

This Beirach track is another gem for me, and I wonder if that was the first step leading to three more CDs with these musicians, homages to Bartok, Mompou and another composer I cannot recall right now. I have to dig out an interview with Beirach he gave after the Bartok disc came out. I linked them in the Bartok thread someone started recently. I dig this very much, a great alternative to other schools of jazz violin playing. I was thinking of Beirach and Hübner, but never heard any of their recordings, so I kept my mouth shut ...

Well, 9 CDs to get this one highlight of a track? What else do you really like on the set besides this one, which is a real gem and gives me the chills, too?

I hope you all drove to the side before maneuvering the players ....

Thanks Again and !!!!! You did it, you did it!!!!! (more to come ...)

Received today: Handel, Trio Sonatas op.2, by Sonnerie - beautiful, absolutely great performance! Schumann, Symphonies 1-4, Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich, David Zinman Musical Humor in the Bach Family - they were holding their sides ....

I just compared the two takes. Monk ignores Miles' routine of not having to comp behind Miles after the piano solo, he continues right through Miles closing solo and the theme, and the performance almost falls apart - Percy Heath seems unsecure, Miles not at terms with what Monk plays behind him, and it's probably due to the studio time deadline approaching that Miles didn't breakdown the take. On the second take Monk follows the routine in the end theme, but stops playing during the B section of his chorus. This to me resembles a method he later often applied with his own groups: he plays a chorus or part of a chorus and lets the bass and drums keep on playing. Now of course this is against Miles' esthetics and group conception ... so he he waits for a few bars and then drops in. Monk reacts with an unexpected fast time solo part and finishes his chorus. Maybe he was thinking about what to do. His solo on the first take is fascinating, but what he did on the second take is better, more precise, as if the first take had been a rehearsal. He hits all those chords in exactly the right places, but then in the B section he either decided to lay out or changed his mind or whatever. He would have nailed it in a third take, but seemingly studio time was running out, and Miles and Weinstock were getting impatient? I do not expect Weinstock to remember every detail after 50 years! Had they given Monk the chance of a third take or even a fourth, it would have been perfect. But that was not Miles' concept of the song. Monk may have disliked the fast chorus tempo: Listen to his version on the Black Lion sessions; He stays in the slower tempo, and uses his dissonant chords to great effect - he actually hears the stride references in the tune, which is something Miles probably didn't care much for. To me, a clash of totally different concepts of one song. Swing Spring from this session, BTW, although credited to Miles, always sounded like a Monk tune to me. At least it is very close to some things Monk has written, and considering Miles wasn't much of a composer and frequently "borrowed" tunes from other writers .....

I think Marcus Belgrave is more interesting in this release than Freddie Hubbard! Not a standout CD, but nice. Charles Davis is very good on this one, as is Roland Alexander. Mathews is better on the older session, IMO. Both LPs are complete on this CD.

That could be part of it, as it was indeed the last tune recorded at the session.

One more reason to get me the Future 2 Future DVD - I saw them live here in Frankfurt and was delighted! The second keyboarder was no slouch, too, playing a long solo on the encore piece (Chameleon) when Wallace Roney didn't want to solo that got Herbie's applause - Terry Linn Carrington was playing rather routine grooves and licks that evening. Thanks for the affirmation.

Amazon Germany has a June 21, 2004 release date for these - no info on the Disconforme site either. I'm afraid you'll have to wait until they're out.

One of mine, too!!! The Prestige twofer LP with all of Prestige's King Pleasure sides and the HiFiJazz LP was my first vocal jazz LP, IIRC, and I've been a vocalese collector ever since!

Together we will stand undefeated!