Rooster_Ties

AND.... "Post-60s Progressives (anyone with roots in that era, from the seventies through today)" would get my "2nd choice" vote (after "progressive 60s" - which did get my #1 vote). The "Classic" BN era (51-67) would probably be my third choice.

Chucho Valdés: Fantasia Cubana: Variations on Classical Themes And excellent release, featureing Chucho in a solo-piano setting. His take on the 'classical' material is both true to the original, and very much influenced by jazz. The AMG review is at the link above, but the info at bluenote.com is way more informative.

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I think I want to vote for this one, but still want some clarification. Are you talkin'about mid to late 60's developments like Joe Henderson, Andrew Hill, Charles Tolliver's work with Jackie McLean, hell - Jackie McLean after 1964 for that matter, Woody Shaw's work with Jackie and Tyrone Washington and Stanley Cowell ("Brilliant Circles"), Bobby Hutcherson, well hell - all of Herbie's and Wayne's BN output, particularly in the mid and especially late 60's??? Larry Young on Unity and especially post-"Unity" -- and later John Patton, circa 1967 and after. Is that what you're talking about??? If so, then sign me up!!!! EDIT: Well, yeah - I kind of had my "Blue Note" hat on when I wrote this post. But Miles after 1965, for sure, definitely. I'm now voting for "progressive 60's" - without a doubt.

Hey Sangry (or anybody else). Wanna riff on my idea of what Miles would have done in Hill's world??? (Assuming my bazaar suggestions of pairing the Miles of "Miles Smiles" on Hill's "Black Fire", or some other Miles (can't decide which one would be best) in one of Hill's late 60's contexts?? (Not "Grass Roots", but one of the more slippery dates - which is why I picked "Lift Every Voice" – but without the voices.) Yes, yes – I know – on a personality level, it could have never worked. (And, yeah, probably not on a musical level either.) And yes – the idea of Miles playing anybody else's music in the 60's is ludicrous, at best. Still, what if?? PS: Good suggestion on Jimmy Lyons, from what little I've heard of him. I've never caught the Cecil bug (so I don't really know him as much from that, other than Cecil's two BN dates from the mid 60's). But at one time I did have Lyons' Give It Up from 1985 at one time (haven't seen it in years, did I trade it? )

I think the key to discussing anything with Wynton would be to get past his semantics – since he's got such a bug up his ass about what is and what isn't "jazz" (in his mind). Fine - then for the sake of discussion, let's not call anything Miles did after he went electric... ...let's not call any of it "jazz". But the central question, whatever the fuck you call it, is this: is it important and vital music?? Or (as Wynton has so often implied) is everything Miles did under the influence of electricity... ...is it all crap, and if so - is it all equally 'sub-standard' (in his opinion). Maybe that's where I could go with this... There's no question that the value of Miles playing "Time after Time" and "Human Nature" is open to debate. What I would like to hear from Wynton is whether he really thinks that Bitches Brew, or Jack Johnson is as much of as artistic 'dead end' as the most (arguably) 'noodling' and/or 'smooth' of Miles' output from the 80's. And my question isn't really centered around Miles in particular -- but it's just that he provides such a clear example of electric music that was incredibly vital at one time, and clearly less vital at a later time (in a different form). But theoretically I could posit the same question about Ornette's value in the late 50's and early 60's, as opposed to his electric output since 1975 or so. Are there any other good examples I could use (besides Miles) to make this point??? Or maybe another way to approach this would be to ask what Wynton thinks are the most important developments in jazz since 1980??? And maybe specifically mention M-BASE as what I think is one of the key movements that has gone on to influence an entire generation of players, who are beginning to integrate M-BASE concepts (or similar ideas, anyway) into hybrids of M-BASE and other (slightly more 'traditional' - though not at all 'traditional' to Wynton) forms of jazz. I'm thinking of Greg Osby's output of the last 5+ years, in particular. ( All this – and yet I'm not 100% sure I'm even gonna be free to go to Wynton's lecture this afternoon. I may have a conflict that just came up this morning, drat! )

Boy, Tyrone would have really given some balls to "Grass Roots", that's for sure. Hell of an idea, Jim. Particularly on the earlier "Grass Roots" date, since Woody Shaw's on it - and he and Tyrone always made such a great front line.

What I got in this morning's e-mail...

In other words, Simon, you want me to point out that the Emperor has no clothes, eh?

Well, to answer my own questions... Who did Hill bring out the best in? Joe Henderson is great in almost any context, but his playing on "Black Fire" in particular, is nothing short of magic. And I'm increasingly becoming impressed with Joe Farrell's work on "Passing Ships" (and I'll have to dig out "Dance with Death" soon and reevaluate his playing there). Without a doubt, Hill is one of my very favorite context in which to hear Lee Morgan or Woody Shaw - both of whom provided some of the most interesting playing of their entire careers (when they played with Hill). The two sessions with Charles Tolliver are also highly interesting to me, as they probably represent the most 'progressive' context that Tolliver ever recorded in. What can I say about bass players with Hill, other than Richard Davis - he's da man!!! Lot's of great drummers, who turned out highly interesting work with Hill. Haynes is one of the very best (especially on "Black Fire"), but I really like Elvin's work on "Judgment" too. But, in some ways, I think some of the later drummers (from the 67-70 sessions) are really damn interesting to hear within Hill's later concept. And Bobby Hutcherson brought something very special to Hill's music. I really wish they would record together again, even now. Even just a duo-album, or in any other small-group context. Who do I wish had recorded with Hill more often??? Joe Henderson, especially. And absolutely Lee Morgan and Woody Shaw. Probably also Roy Haynes and Elvin Jones -- and Bobby Hutcherson. In fact, here could have been an amazing date: A Hill album with Joe, plus Lee or Woody, plus Richard Davis, plus Roy or Elvin, along with Hutch. Wow - what a line-up that could have been!!! And who do I wish had recorded with Hill back then, but didn't? The most obvious answers (already given) are Wayne Shorter and Don Cherry, and I concur totally. But I'll throw a curve ball in here and also say Grant Green. The only guitarist to ever record with Hill was Jimmy Ponder (on the earlier, unreleased-at-the-time "Grass Roots" session). Ponder adds a fascinating 'tartness' (the word I nearly always use to describe his contribution to that date). I'm not sure I would have necessarily wanted to hear the Grant Green of 1968 with Hill (on that date). But it would have been very interesting to hear the Grant Green of 1963-65 - with Hill sometime after 1967. (Does that make any sense?? ) Another thing (that surely wouldn't have worked) was to consider how Miles would have sounded within Andrew Hill's world. I know it's been said time and again how Miles hated playing with Monk. But that was back in the 50's, and by the mid-to-late 60's -- Miles was in an entirely different place. Imagine the "Miles Smiles" Miles of 1966 on "Black Fire" (1963). Or maybe the "Sorcerer/Nefertiti" Miles of 1967 on either of the "Lift Every Voice" sessions (1969 & 1970), but without the voices. I mean, it's clear that you would have to REALLY cherry-pick very particular moments in both Miles' career, and Hill's too (and not the same years) -- in order to pair them up in any way that would even be half-way conceivable. (Then again, the idea of the Miles of the 60's playing in any non-Miles context, is nearly impossible to imagine.) Anybody have any other thoughts on my suggestions of either Grant Green, or Miles?? Any other 'wild and crazy' ideas for people to have play on a Hill date???

I'm sure nearly all of what you describe about is probably true, BERIGAN. At the same time, I'm not loosing too much sleep over using the 40% off coupon for a couple items, since in my experience, 90+% of the time Borders charges full 'list' price on most CD's. (Or, at least they almost always charge full 'list' price on damn near everything I'm ever looking for.) I mean, if it weren't for the occasional Borders coupon, or their once-a-year RVG sales -- I wouldn't buy any CD's there, ever. No, I don't expect "loss leader" prices on everything, all the time. But I don't expect "full list price" on everything (damn near all the time) either. That's fine - they can set up their pricing structure however they like, it's their store. And I'll take most of my CD business elsewhere too. Borders is probably the best bookstore in town. But their CD section is way overpriced, if you ask me.

Surrender to the Air (Elektra, 1996) A project lead by Trey Anastasio, also including Jon Fishman (both of Phish fame). This disc also includes Michael Ray (tp) and Marshall Allen (as), along with Marc Ribot and John Medeski. In many ways, it comes off as a sort of 'Sun Ra'-ish album, more than anything else (and to my ears, at least - it isn't very Phishy at all). You can probably find this one used (and very cheap) if you keep your eyes out for it. It doesn't have Anastasio's name on the spine, so it's almost always filed under 'S' for "Surrender..." (and most often filed in the Rock section too, as most used places have no idea what it is, or where to file it - and frankly, it is a bit of a genre-buster). Well worth $6 or $7, which is what I've often seen it for, but I'd probably snag it for $8 or $9 even. (3 and 1/2 stars, in my book)

Up for some more discussin' - cuz the lecture is tomorrow!!

or

OK, I think this is a complete list of all the sidemen on Andrew Hill's released output from BN during the years of 1963-70. (I haven't included the 'voices', or the string quartet, or the two percussionists from "Compulsion". But I did include Bobby Hutcherson's "Dialogue" in my calculations - since it practically is a Hill album, in several ways.) 1.) Who do you think Hill brought out the best in??? Especially if Hill brought out a particularly interesting side of someone, that we otherwise didn't get to hear that much. 2.) Who do you wish Hill had recorded with more often??? 3.) And who's name isn't on this list, that you would have liked to have recorded with Hill, back in the day??? Sax Eric Dolphy Booker Ervin Joe Farrell (2 sessions) Carlos Garnett John Gilmore (2 sessions) Joe Henderson (3 sessions) Bennie Maupin (3 sessions) Frank Mitchell Pat Patrick Sam Rivers (2 sessions) Trumpet Kenny Dorham Freddie Hubbard (3 sessions) Lee Morgan (2 sessions) Dizzy Reece Woody Shaw (3 sessions) Charles Toliver (2 sessions) Bass Walter Booker Ron Carter (5 sessions) Richard Davis (8 sessions!!!) Eddie Khan Cecil McBee Victor Sproles Reggie Workman Drums Joe Chambers (4 sessions) Roy Haynes (2 sessions) Billy Higgins Elvin Jones J.C. Moses Idris Muhammad Ben Riley (2 sessions) Mickey Roker Freddie Waits (2 sessions) Lenny White Tony Williams other Bobby Hutcherson (3 sessions) Howard Johnson (tuba) Bob Northern (French Horn) Jimmy Ponder (guitar) Julian Priester (trombone)

Was just listening to the Andrew Hill BN discs with John Gilmore (Andrew!!! and Compulsion), and thought that this might make for an interesting topic. Anybody that ever recorded with Sun Ra is fair game - so that's a TON of people to consider. So... What are the best or most interesting recordings (either as leaders or as sidemen) that included people who played with Sun Ra.

I have a bunch of recent ones (that I've gotten over the last 10 years), but my favorite is the one my Mom personally got from Ellington, in the early 50's -- when she was in college.

Why Will No One Take Me Seriously? By A Wealthy Nigerian Businessman Who Needs Your Help To Transfer $20 Million Out Of His Country For months now, I've been trying to transfer this darn $20 million out of Nigeria. At first, I thought that a small cash stipend - say, $10,000 - would be enough incentive to encourage someone to help me. When no one responded to that offer, I increased the reward amount to $20,000, $50,000...at this point, I'm offering two million dollars. Why will no one take me seriously? I'm not asking a lot. All I need is a U.S. bank account into which to transfer the funds. All someone would have to do is give me their account number. I'd wire the funds into their account, and my associate in the U.S. would withdraw them - minus the $2 million reward. Come on, people! It's money for nothing! My fellow Nigerians are all laughing at me. They can't believe it's so difficult to use unofficial channels to move a few million into the States. They ask, aren't Americans materialistic? Can't you just offer a few bucks as a reward? Surely someone will help you! That's what I thought, too, which is why I can't figure this out. I've sent out E-mails to, I don't know, maybe a hundred million prospects, and I've yet to get one serious reply. What's going on here? Are Americans so lazy that they simply can't be bothered? Is there some kind of latent racism making them unwilling to help a man from an African country? Or is something else going on? The few replies I get to my many E-mails are maddeningly cryptic. One guy says, "Nice try, but I've seen 'Matchstick Men!'" I don't even know what that means. Another suggests that, if I wish to complete the transaction, perhaps I would also wish to purchase a bridge in New York City. What made him think I have an interest in real estate? Still another says that he "wasn't born yesterday." I'm not looking for infants, I'm looking for adults who want to make an easy two million! My time is running out. If I don't move this twenty million, I'm going to lose out on a huge business opportunity. Perhaps I should emphasize the urgency of the matter by writing my E-mails in all capital letters. I could intrigue my recipients by stressing the need for utmost secrecy, or flatter them by saying that I know they're dependable and trustworthy. Or maybe I should start using an American-sounding name, such as "John T. Grifter." If that doesn't work, I don't know what will.

http://www.veer.com/ideas/btt/

Just skimmed the PDF's (very, VERY quickly). Lot's of dry data, but the summaries of volume II and III, and the overall executive summary are kinda interesting.

SOURCE THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE ARTS RELEASES FURTHER DETAILS OF JAZZ MUSICIANS Washington, D.C.-The National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) today released further details of its extensive survey of jazz musicians titled, Changing the Beat: A Study of the Worklife of Jazz Musicians. The report contains extensive data from about 2,700 jazz musicians located in New York, Detroit, San Francisco and New Orleans. The survey was designed to provide an understanding of the jazz environment in each of the cities involved and to provide a detailed needs assessment from jazz artists. An executive summary of the report was released last January. JazzExecSummary.pdf "We hope this body of information will help those who appreciate and support jazz music better understand the needs of the artists who produce this uniquely American art form, which is central to America's cultural legacy," said Dana Gioia, Chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts. To compensate for the difficulties involved in identifying jazz musicians, survey targets were chosen from a random sampling of American Federation of Musicians members (AFM) and by Respondent-Driven-Sampling (RDS), an iterated chain-referral method that included both union and non-union musicians. Volume II of the report includes demographic information of the AFM respondents-such as age, gender, marital status, and education level-in addition to employment, benefits and income-related findings. Respondents also provided details of their worklife such as touring frequency, copyright ownership, and recording history. JazzII.pdf Volume III provides similar information about the RDS group. Both volumes also include an overview of the jazz scenes in the cities studied, as well as a breakdown of statistics by city. JazzIII.pdf Changing the Beat was conducted by the Research Center for Arts and Culture at Columbia University Teachers College under a cooperative agreement with the National Endowment for the Arts and the San Francisco Study Center. The survey was supported by the David and Lucile Packard Foundation, the Grammy Foundation, American Federation of Musicians, American Federation of Musicians Local 802, the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Foundation, and the Nathan Cummings Foundation. For more information, contact the NEA Office of Communications at 202-682-5570 or visit the NEA Web site at www.arts.gov.

What if I asked him a fairly reasonable question that might allow him to save face, or perhaps even surprise me. (HA!!! – Who am I kidding!!!!) Anyway, how about something like this... "Mr. Marsalis. Your critics often cite your well documented opinions about many of the more 'progressive' developments in jazz since the late 1960's (for instance, Miles Davis going electric). 1) Do you feel that there are any widespread misconceptions about your views about modern 'progressive' jazz, and jazz-related-musics?? And... 2) would you mention the names of a couple 'progressive' jazz artists who's post-1967 contributions to the development of jazz have been important to the further development of jazz?? (in your own opinion)"