Rooster_Ties

Don't have time to give a full report now, but I did end up going to hear Wynton. Overall, his lecture struck me as being much like his music. Not nearly as offensive as I might have expected it to be (or maybe 'wanted' it to be - which shows my biases). But he sure talked a lot, without really having much to say -- much like what he plays. The audience was nearly all college kids, of all different kinds of majors (so it was a generally 'less-than-interested-in-jazz' kind of group -- or frankly, a group that really was necessarily all that fanatical about music, for that matter). The place was packed, so one got the sense that the lecture had been heavily promoted, perhaps even as one of many such lectures that students could attend - like for the Freshman 'general studies' courses. (You know the kind, which try to introduce incoming students to critical thinking -- since this was at a small Liberal Arts college.) Most of his talk wasn't about music, although he did try to tie some things into his ideas about music, usually in long, rambling, and not-all-that-well-thought-out ways. I took a bunch of notes, and I'll try to provide some quotes later. Not sure I'm all that glad I went (either for good or bad reasons), but he did confirm my expectations of mediocrity. He did say a number of things (most of which I jotted down as best I could), which seem antithetical to his otherwise conservative views about jazz. I'll type up some of the 'better' ones later. He took questions at the end, but they had to be submitted in advance, and I was a couple minutes late getting to the lecture - and didn't get a program (which had the cards in it to submit questions). By the time I wrote out a question about his thoughts on Women in jazz (because he mentioned 'women' several times in his talk), they had already collected up all the cards and taken them on stage for the moderator to read. (Drat!!) More later -- gotta run now...

I'm not looking for single images as much as links to entire sites devoted to all kinds of cool stuff (images, etc...) from the past. I just stumbled on this one, and on first glance, could probably spend hours there... http://www.popcultmag.com So, where else is there cool stuff to brouse??? EDIT: Some interesting articles there too...

Check out BET on Sunday nights (sometime around or after 10pm, at least here in Central Time). Robert Tilton still does his thing, and it's still as madening / sad-as-hell / funny as ever!!!!

Me too. Actually, I really don't have all that many recordings with Bari, come to think of it. Probably fully half of what I got is stuff with Pepper.

I understand that Michael Ray has sat in with MMW on a dozen or more occasions over the years, judging from the tape-tree data I've seen at a couple MMW fanatic sites. Always been curious to hear Ray with MMW. Anybody here got any????

AND.... "Post-60s Progressives (anyone with roots in that era, from the seventies through today)" would get my "2nd choice" vote (after "progressive 60s" - which did get my #1 vote). The "Classic" BN era (51-67) would probably be my third choice.

Chucho Valdés: Fantasia Cubana: Variations on Classical Themes And excellent release, featureing Chucho in a solo-piano setting. His take on the 'classical' material is both true to the original, and very much influenced by jazz. The AMG review is at the link above, but the info at bluenote.com is way more informative.

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I think I want to vote for this one, but still want some clarification. Are you talkin'about mid to late 60's developments like Joe Henderson, Andrew Hill, Charles Tolliver's work with Jackie McLean, hell - Jackie McLean after 1964 for that matter, Woody Shaw's work with Jackie and Tyrone Washington and Stanley Cowell ("Brilliant Circles"), Bobby Hutcherson, well hell - all of Herbie's and Wayne's BN output, particularly in the mid and especially late 60's??? Larry Young on Unity and especially post-"Unity" -- and later John Patton, circa 1967 and after. Is that what you're talking about??? If so, then sign me up!!!! EDIT: Well, yeah - I kind of had my "Blue Note" hat on when I wrote this post. But Miles after 1965, for sure, definitely. I'm now voting for "progressive 60's" - without a doubt.

Hey Sangry (or anybody else). Wanna riff on my idea of what Miles would have done in Hill's world??? (Assuming my bazaar suggestions of pairing the Miles of "Miles Smiles" on Hill's "Black Fire", or some other Miles (can't decide which one would be best) in one of Hill's late 60's contexts?? (Not "Grass Roots", but one of the more slippery dates - which is why I picked "Lift Every Voice" – but without the voices.) Yes, yes – I know – on a personality level, it could have never worked. (And, yeah, probably not on a musical level either.) And yes – the idea of Miles playing anybody else's music in the 60's is ludicrous, at best. Still, what if?? PS: Good suggestion on Jimmy Lyons, from what little I've heard of him. I've never caught the Cecil bug (so I don't really know him as much from that, other than Cecil's two BN dates from the mid 60's). But at one time I did have Lyons' Give It Up from 1985 at one time (haven't seen it in years, did I trade it? )

I think the key to discussing anything with Wynton would be to get past his semantics – since he's got such a bug up his ass about what is and what isn't "jazz" (in his mind). Fine - then for the sake of discussion, let's not call anything Miles did after he went electric... ...let's not call any of it "jazz". But the central question, whatever the fuck you call it, is this: is it important and vital music?? Or (as Wynton has so often implied) is everything Miles did under the influence of electricity... ...is it all crap, and if so - is it all equally 'sub-standard' (in his opinion). Maybe that's where I could go with this... There's no question that the value of Miles playing "Time after Time" and "Human Nature" is open to debate. What I would like to hear from Wynton is whether he really thinks that Bitches Brew, or Jack Johnson is as much of as artistic 'dead end' as the most (arguably) 'noodling' and/or 'smooth' of Miles' output from the 80's. And my question isn't really centered around Miles in particular -- but it's just that he provides such a clear example of electric music that was incredibly vital at one time, and clearly less vital at a later time (in a different form). But theoretically I could posit the same question about Ornette's value in the late 50's and early 60's, as opposed to his electric output since 1975 or so. Are there any other good examples I could use (besides Miles) to make this point??? Or maybe another way to approach this would be to ask what Wynton thinks are the most important developments in jazz since 1980??? And maybe specifically mention M-BASE as what I think is one of the key movements that has gone on to influence an entire generation of players, who are beginning to integrate M-BASE concepts (or similar ideas, anyway) into hybrids of M-BASE and other (slightly more 'traditional' - though not at all 'traditional' to Wynton) forms of jazz. I'm thinking of Greg Osby's output of the last 5+ years, in particular. ( All this – and yet I'm not 100% sure I'm even gonna be free to go to Wynton's lecture this afternoon. I may have a conflict that just came up this morning, drat! )

Boy, Tyrone would have really given some balls to "Grass Roots", that's for sure. Hell of an idea, Jim. Particularly on the earlier "Grass Roots" date, since Woody Shaw's on it - and he and Tyrone always made such a great front line.

What I got in this morning's e-mail...

In other words, Simon, you want me to point out that the Emperor has no clothes, eh?

Well, to answer my own questions... Who did Hill bring out the best in? Joe Henderson is great in almost any context, but his playing on "Black Fire" in particular, is nothing short of magic. And I'm increasingly becoming impressed with Joe Farrell's work on "Passing Ships" (and I'll have to dig out "Dance with Death" soon and reevaluate his playing there). Without a doubt, Hill is one of my very favorite context in which to hear Lee Morgan or Woody Shaw - both of whom provided some of the most interesting playing of their entire careers (when they played with Hill). The two sessions with Charles Tolliver are also highly interesting to me, as they probably represent the most 'progressive' context that Tolliver ever recorded in. What can I say about bass players with Hill, other than Richard Davis - he's da man!!! Lot's of great drummers, who turned out highly interesting work with Hill. Haynes is one of the very best (especially on "Black Fire"), but I really like Elvin's work on "Judgment" too. But, in some ways, I think some of the later drummers (from the 67-70 sessions) are really damn interesting to hear within Hill's later concept. And Bobby Hutcherson brought something very special to Hill's music. I really wish they would record together again, even now. Even just a duo-album, or in any other small-group context. Who do I wish had recorded with Hill more often??? Joe Henderson, especially. And absolutely Lee Morgan and Woody Shaw. Probably also Roy Haynes and Elvin Jones -- and Bobby Hutcherson. In fact, here could have been an amazing date: A Hill album with Joe, plus Lee or Woody, plus Richard Davis, plus Roy or Elvin, along with Hutch. Wow - what a line-up that could have been!!! And who do I wish had recorded with Hill back then, but didn't? The most obvious answers (already given) are Wayne Shorter and Don Cherry, and I concur totally. But I'll throw a curve ball in here and also say Grant Green. The only guitarist to ever record with Hill was Jimmy Ponder (on the earlier, unreleased-at-the-time "Grass Roots" session). Ponder adds a fascinating 'tartness' (the word I nearly always use to describe his contribution to that date). I'm not sure I would have necessarily wanted to hear the Grant Green of 1968 with Hill (on that date). But it would have been very interesting to hear the Grant Green of 1963-65 - with Hill sometime after 1967. (Does that make any sense?? ) Another thing (that surely wouldn't have worked) was to consider how Miles would have sounded within Andrew Hill's world. I know it's been said time and again how Miles hated playing with Monk. But that was back in the 50's, and by the mid-to-late 60's -- Miles was in an entirely different place. Imagine the "Miles Smiles" Miles of 1966 on "Black Fire" (1963). Or maybe the "Sorcerer/Nefertiti" Miles of 1967 on either of the "Lift Every Voice" sessions (1969 & 1970), but without the voices. I mean, it's clear that you would have to REALLY cherry-pick very particular moments in both Miles' career, and Hill's too (and not the same years) -- in order to pair them up in any way that would even be half-way conceivable. (Then again, the idea of the Miles of the 60's playing in any non-Miles context, is nearly impossible to imagine.) Anybody have any other thoughts on my suggestions of either Grant Green, or Miles?? Any other 'wild and crazy' ideas for people to have play on a Hill date???

I'm sure nearly all of what you describe about is probably true, BERIGAN. At the same time, I'm not loosing too much sleep over using the 40% off coupon for a couple items, since in my experience, 90+% of the time Borders charges full 'list' price on most CD's. (Or, at least they almost always charge full 'list' price on damn near everything I'm ever looking for.) I mean, if it weren't for the occasional Borders coupon, or their once-a-year RVG sales -- I wouldn't buy any CD's there, ever. No, I don't expect "loss leader" prices on everything, all the time. But I don't expect "full list price" on everything (damn near all the time) either. That's fine - they can set up their pricing structure however they like, it's their store. And I'll take most of my CD business elsewhere too. Borders is probably the best bookstore in town. But their CD section is way overpriced, if you ask me.

Surrender to the Air (Elektra, 1996) A project lead by Trey Anastasio, also including Jon Fishman (both of Phish fame). This disc also includes Michael Ray (tp) and Marshall Allen (as), along with Marc Ribot and John Medeski. In many ways, it comes off as a sort of 'Sun Ra'-ish album, more than anything else (and to my ears, at least - it isn't very Phishy at all). You can probably find this one used (and very cheap) if you keep your eyes out for it. It doesn't have Anastasio's name on the spine, so it's almost always filed under 'S' for "Surrender..." (and most often filed in the Rock section too, as most used places have no idea what it is, or where to file it - and frankly, it is a bit of a genre-buster). Well worth $6 or $7, which is what I've often seen it for, but I'd probably snag it for $8 or $9 even. (3 and 1/2 stars, in my book)

Up for some more discussin' - cuz the lecture is tomorrow!!