JSngry

Oh, ok. Still not sure how one makes a choice without perception (i.e. - processing of auditory input) being involved, if you have to choose there has to be the perception involved, even if the question is "can you hear a difference?", even if your answer is "no", it's because you're not perceiving one, not that there actually isn't one, you're just perceiving them to be identical (enough) but unless it's the actual human condition that the first time you hear something, you're going to consciously hear everything that is there, then...how 'bout that, huh, geez, had I only known. I remember back in the day we'd have conversations about which was better to masturbate to, Playboy or Penthouse. And sometimes some guy would jump up and start advocating for Hustler and it was, like, whooooa, ok, we're changing the subject now, we are not talking about the same kind of masturbation, even if we're both just stroking cock.

That's not what I asked. Perhaps I should rephrase - is their any data available to show what happens if the same people take the same blind tests for several hours a day, and then repeatedly take these same tests over a sustained period of time? All I get put in my face is tests taken over a relativity shot test period. Where are the test results that show/suggest/disprove that a listener can develop greater differential perceptions over time?

Any data on ABX test results for same users/same tests taken over the span of several hours a day for weeks, months, even years?

Kim Darby Alexandra Kim Van Alexander

I read some book about the great Tin Pan Alley songwriters" in the very late 70s (it was a great big coffee=table book, too , so it might be "famous" or something, big AND well-written) that talked about this in its opening chapters, and if I recall it correctly, if vaguely, the deal was that before records, sheet music sales were what drove the "music industry", song pluggers and all that. So instead of song pluggers, the publishing houses titrated looking to records to move their wares, which meant that they didn't want any songs that didn't fit on a (roughly) three minute record.l The 32 bad form is an accurate enough description of the form, but if we get to thinking that "32 bar form" = AABA, we start thinking carelessly , there's enough non AABA 35 bar pop songs (AB1AB2 being particularly not uncommon) to forgo the notion that that structure was forced onto songwriters. Plus, plenty of early recordings of songs included the verse. I would suggest that we look at the impact of things in the folloiwng order and then look for overlaps and disruptions. Pianos in every home sales/sheet music/songwriting demands to meet that new market/recording capacity/recording distribution My first feeling is that then as now, publishing drives everything else when it comes to the popular music business, and that where the business is where the music eventually ends up. Not the other way around , all sorts of eruptions and revolts not withstanding.

Is she using the takes to learn the tunes, or to learn the arrangements? I've got some Sinatra bootlegs where it's the latter, and although not "general listening" in any way, the insight they provide into Sinatra's process is deep. borderline profound. OTOH, there's a Johnny Hartman Bethlehem date where the alternates make it sound like he really was learning the tunes as he went along. That was...unfortunate.

Nice work if you can get it...

We were watching a little bit of it just last Saturday (I love it, Brenda tolerates it) and I told her, you wait and see, when this guy finally goes off the air, it's gonna be news everywhere. And its looking to be just that. Most Anglos don't know it or just kinda know about it. but i tell you what, 53 years is an incredible feat, and by the time its over, the name Don Francisco will be known across the globe! I saw my first episode in, I think, 1979. To think that they had already been doing it for 17 years then is a trip. Live, three hours, every Saturday night (except one, just one!) for 53 years...I've seen Don Francisco age, he's getting those skinny legs like old people get, but when he takes the mike and hits the stage, Oh..My...God. That guy is Boss Of Everything then. BOSS!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/04/17/400378946/tv-s-sabado-gigante-will-cease-production-this-fall-ending-record-run If you have never seen Sabado Gigante, and have the access to do so, you really owe it to yourself to watch it at least once. There's been nothing like it, there will likely never again be anything like it, and they've done it live every week for 53 years. You'll need to speak Spanish to follow it, but you don't need to speak ANYTHING to be entertained by it. Just watch, listen, and be amazed. Don Francisco IS the baaaaaaadest man in the history of television.

What I'm interested in is getting to the discovery of whatever live recordings exist of the Summer 1957 gigs of the Monk/Trane/Ware/Jones-or-Wilson band. That band, that gig. It would be at most a slight exaggeration to compare (based on all contemporary and historical accounts) that summer for Trane to the "Dan Wall's Chili House" gig for Bird, the moment when everything came into focus and started coming out of the horn. To that end, I just had a look at Orrin Keepnews' Producer's Notes" to M-47011 the Milestone Monk/Trane twofer from 1973, and found this useful chronological note: So...if there is to be any material from the actually Summer of 1957 gig, be it with either Wilson or Jones but definitely with Ware, it's a pretty small window - from ""Summer" (what, May? June?) 1957 to no later than August 13, 1957. If what the Monk family posted on their now-defunct website (and what Gambit has since stolen/released) is actually from that gig, that's the window for it. But that's a minor issue, really, a statistic. The bigger question is this - do they have more from within that same window, and if so, how much? We'll not get to hear Bird at Dan Wall's Chili House, but if we can get to hear Trane at the Five Spot with Monk/Ware/Jones-or-Wilson, how much chili would THAT be, eh?

I don't read Lord, so maybe that's why I'm not confused about that part of it. Really not confused about anything really, just looking for the possibility of there being a different way of connecting the dots to determine if there might be a fuller set of recordings from the Summer Of 57 band. l p's excellent point suggests that if they are, they're likely not from Naima Coltrane, But the Goldberg quotes which seem to imply that there are/were private recordings of that band never mention Naima, it just says that "Coltrane has some tapes made at the club" of that band, so the possibility still exists that there were tapes made of that band as well as of the sub gig of 1958. If there were, they would appear to be under the Monk family province instead of the Trane family's. That is the gig that I've be dieing to hear for decades now, Summer of 57, Monk/Trane/Ware/Wilson (or even Philly? I had forgotten that Philly was the original drummer in that band, thanks again Joe Goldberg, the book that continues to give for over 40 years now). Coltrane making his big personal and musical breakthroughs, Monk finally coming out into the light of general public availability, Wilbur Ware, for whom there is no equal substitute, words like "legendary", "electrifying", "monumental", "life changing" keep popping up in reference to this gig. The Discovery gig was cool and all that, but it's not THAT gig, The closest so far that has seen general distribution has been the 11/57 Carnegie Hall concert, but Ware's already gone by then. It's winter, not summer. This little bit of actual Summer 57 music (if that's really what it is) whets the appetite for a full set, or possibly sets, of one of the greater undocumented bands of the 20th century to someday see full, commercial release. How do you not get excited about that? And while we're at it, how do you not wonder how playing a full summer with Wilbur Ware influenced Coltrane to finally make Jimmy Garrison his home bass/base? Hadn't considered that until just now, but, think about it.

Welding glasses, dude, welding glasses. My dad brought me home a pair of these one day when I was a kid, they sat unused for years until I saw this, and then on they went.

There is no confusion about anything, just a curiosity if there are more Monk/Trane/Ware/Wilson tapes from 1957 that have yet to see the light of public release. Decades of "mythology" have implied that there were. The Discovery CD seemed to imply that there never had been any. But now we know that there are at least two tunes worth. So - is there more? I don't know where the notion that Discovery originally claimed to be the 1957 band is coming from. It give the recording date as "late Summer 1957" but that's it. It gets the players right the first time out. Well, ok, some sensible logic about this. Thank you.

Some cats you cover their tunes because it's easy and everybody knows them. These cats, you try and cover their mentalities.and that is nowhere near the easier task of mimicry. That's like wanting to "be popular", AACM is like, growing up and keep growing up. Not for just any old jazzhappy boys or girls. And yet - look at the number of inspirations this music and these minds have had over 50 years and counting of meaty considerations that spur more meaty considerations.

Ok, here's what the Discovery liner notes say: And then they detail the personnel (correctly) and how Trane came to be on the stand that night.and how Abdul-Malik had taken Ware's gig. So, Discovery was ALWAYS clear about who the band was. But here's the back story that nobody talked about after this came out, and I guess nobody was too bummed out about Discovery to be concerned with it. to consider that, yes, this is much more than we expected, but this is NOT what we had expected and hoped for.. Here's Goldberg, first from the chapter on Monk, then from the one about Trane: Somewhere later down the road I read a few times about "Coltrane's wife" having these tapes, and it all sounds like what was being talked about was just live at the Five Spot, summer of 1957, Monk, Trane, Ware, and either PJJ or Shadow Wilson, one of the most electrifying bands to hit NYC ever, and only caught in action at their peak by Naima Coltrane. This is the impression that lingered for years until the Discovery CD came out, and it was revealed that the mythic Naima Coltrane tapes were NOT of the Summer Of 57 band after all,,,shucks. And in fairness, the premise that it was otherwise was a set of assumptions put together in one context, when the reality may well have occurred in another. Assumptions combined with wishes male for a powerful intoxicant. But now, here come two tracks that show that there ARE Naima Coltrane Summer Of 57 tapes after all, at least a cut and a half.and THAT'S what I want to know - WTF is THIS all about? Was the tapes that Trane was treasuring and digging and Goldberg was referencing and everybody just assuming about, were they actually the 58 tapes, or maybe the 57 tapes (which may no longer exists in as full a form as they once did? Or was it all of that those AND maybe some OTHER Summer of 57 tapes as well? Because as nice as Discovery is (or was, once it got pitch-corrected)....the Summer of 57 band is the one that legends sprung up around, THAT was the band to hear, and if there's a full set or two by THAT band that still exists, I say that we got powned just a little bit by Discovery, that we were so eager to taste the legend that we were easy prey. Because by the 1958 sets, the initial impact of that gig had already happened, it was already a legend, Trane was just subbing in 1958, ok?.This was not him going to his gig in 19578, this was him going to A gig in 1958. A tape of the legend being made in real time, Trane ON the gig in 1957 instead of subbing on it in 1958, making those breakthroughs on a live mike, hell. now THAT....that would be sweeter than sweet. If these two 1957 pieces had never surfaced, I'd go about my business happy and content...but now that I know that there's the possibility of the REAL "Discovery"...hmmmmm.

Elementary tonight...I'm probably slow on the uptake, but has this show devolved into essentially Murder, She Wrote? With Lucy Liu still aboard, I'm ok with that, by all means, but still, didn't it used to be quirkier and..better?

Ratly Roly Poly Jim Reeves

EXACTLY!!!!

Unless and until a bullet train seat is as cramped as an airplane seat and the air as stuffy as an airplane cabin, bullet train FTW. And business traffic between DFW & Houton...immense. Same thing for sporting events, concerts, never mind northern members of the Katrina Diaspora heading south to check on fellow Diasporites (and I am not at all kidding about this...who has yet done the true story of the Katrina Diaspora?). I cannot image a bullet train stop without any number of ways to get a ride outta there to get to get to the actual destination. There's a LOT of money to be made there, and besides, if you have family/friends/coworkers (and who doesn't, although not necessarily in Houston) it's a moot point. Plus - driving into Houston on 45 sucks the biggest of all possible donkey dicks. Although driving in Dallas is rapidly coming up on it. If they build it, I will come. Repeatedly, and in buckets. But not on the train, that would be too much like a bus. So...why am i thinking that Southwest either has or is ready to have some discrete influx of fundage into this opposition? Hell, they don't need it, they to freakin' NEW YORK now, what do they need with those commuter flights except maybe they're not ready to move outta that just quite yet? Ultimately, progress happens when those who have the most to lose are no longer in a position to be worried all that much about losing it. Either that or there's a freakin' war and shit. I'd Take A Bullet For The Bullet, there ya' go, there's a bumper sticker for when thing start getting too contrarian!

What I'm saying is that I seem to recall the BN CD of the Abdul-Malik/Haynes group claiming to be THE legendary Naima Monk/Trane tape, and that the legend that for decades had that tape as being of the Ware/Wilson quartet was not really the case at all. Ok, I could accept that. But now there's another Naima tape that IS of the Ware/Wilson band, so does that mean that there is more of it than thiese two cuts, or that this is all that has survived, or this has only fairly recently been discovered? Or what? Perhaps I'm in the minority of having heard the stories/legends about the Naima tape of the Ware/Wilson band for so many years that the fact that the finally released tape was not THAT band was a little, just a little, bit of a letdown. But again, that's ok. Legends/rumors/all that, that's a part of life, and never be too surprised or too disappointed when that happens. However...if that legend turns out to be tangibly true, then put me down in the Shamelessly Greedy Column, where they list the people who want to hear ALL of it ASAP, BAMN. Maybe to put it another way - never have I heard of their possibly being TWO legendary Naima Monk/Trane tapes until now.

What's truly dizzying is that the original legend might actually be true.

When I read stuff like this: I'm thinking, like, wherever the deepest part of Fuck You Hell is, that's where they need to be moved. Not necessarily the people, just these assholes mouthpieces. Apart from the genuinely concerned and/or truly anti-progress faction (of which I'm sure there's a handful) this has If You Want My Support, Get Off Your Ass And Come Pay And Me For It and/or Too Late - The Airlines and/or The Highway Lobby Have Me In Their Pocket written all over it. People who don't live in big states with a lot of roads might not grasp just how powerful the highway lobby has been in Texas for at least the last 75 or so years (and not without some good outcomes. Some...). And don't think that highways and oil don't fit together like the end of a hot night with Desi & Lucy before it all went bad. That's a symbiotic relationship if ever there was one. Don't misunderstand me - all you have to do is cross the state line into Oklahoma or Louisiana to realize that all the money we spend on highways, no matter how rigged the game might be, is not without its meaningful positive implications. But still - "It's more feasible to drive"? Uh, not when i want, or even need, to do a down and back it ain't. And the easier that down and back gets, the more I'll do it, and that ultimately means I spend some money in some places I wouldn't spend it at otherwise, just not alwaysat a Buckee Beaver or some such, but that's, like, OK, ya' know? Stuckey's died right on the fucking Interstate, dig? And now we got Buckee Beaver. If that ain't progress rising from the ashes of death, I don't know what is.

Yeah, the one before that on Moers, and then the one after that on Leo (with Kalaparusha in place of Huff), pretty much...I'll not say set the bar for that band, but...everything after that (except the recent forays in house remixes and such) was a variation/refinement of what happened on those three records. And Huff...other than Birth Of A Notion and those two EHE albums, what else is he on besides this Infinite Spirit Music? Such a strong player...

Yeah, well, see if you can talk down all the Rangers from out of the hospital/ER/DL. Those players get broke more often than The Ten Commandments (apologies to O.V. Wright).

Rural landowners? Let's just take their land and force them to go somewhere where they'll never be a bother again. It's not like we don't know how to do that....