Niko

still on youtube, this is an interesting 1972 video of a band of Dutch bop advocates like Frans Elsen (who later organized many workshops with Barry Harris), Eric Ineke (dr, long time drummer with de Graaff e.g. on Chasin the bird) and Wim Overgaauw (g, heard in that Mobley clip) revealing that some of them might have owned some of the more recent Miles records.... no contradictions from my point of view, one can feel things differently in one decade vs the other... but I always thought that the European jazz musicians of those generations were unusually open to new ideas even late in their careers... after all, they built a career on absorbing ideas from far away quickly and convincingly... and later the guys here discovered that Bebop was the essence (or, to quote a recent Ineke answer to a question about advice for young musicians: "Bird is the word.")

indeed, I just thought about those albums with Dick Vennik from the 70s, those don't qualify as pure bebop, someone might have owned a John Coltrane record here his later music is again more boppish... funnily enough, a few years back, I was going through all the boxes with cheap jazz records in a store in Rotterdam and the owner approached me afterwards whether I'd seen Chasin' the bird in there... Apparently, de Graaff had just called because he no longer owned a copy and was looking for it. this is a cool video I just found, apparently from de Graaff's own account the music is all from the Hank Mobley in Holland CD but the footage in the first minutes or so shows de Graaff visiting New York's East Village in 1967, meeting Walter Davis Jr, Herbie Lewis and Hank Mobley...

regarding that last anecdote, how did Pauer say "your own shit" in German/Austrian? regarding Bebop piano players, there is also Sacha Perry...in places, his album with Aaron Johnson from last year is so purely Bebop it's almost comical https://aaronjohnsonjazz.bandcamp.com/album/nightmare

I would guess that forgettable means something like "if you could pick something to forget, this might be it", so indeed, the opposite of memorable - even though most things are neither memorable nor forgettable but fairly neutral... Moreover, we forget many memorable things and remember many forgettable ones... I guess that Steve's forgetting about his ownership of the record was a case of forgetting about a record that is neither memorable nor forgettable... [and, of course, a record may well be memorable even though the fact that one owns it is not memorable, especially for records one sees all the time in the bins...] regarding Morris, I recently bought a record by Thomas Morris and his Seven Hot Babies and was surprised to learn that not only was Thomas the uncle of Marlowe but somehow they both managed to record quite a bit while carrying a somewhat dubious reputation (quoting from the link: "probably because of lack of technical facilities owing to a non-existent formal instrumental education and training, his musical life occurred in a relative background of theatre shows, blues accompaniment and small gutbucket combo engagements. His was never a top name in Harlem and it is not astounding that he ceased his musical activities in the late twenties").

I guess stompin' uses a fairly technical definition of forgettable as the opposite of unforgettable... it boils down to the question whether "a forgettable album" and "an album I had forgotten about" are (almost) synonyms or not... I would say not at all, but then again I'm not a native speaker... btw, I had actually been curious about that album due to the contribution of Bobby Henderson whom I've liked a lot in other contexts... does one get to hear much of him?

Well, my brother and me wear fairly different beards and by now my hair is quite a bit whiter than his... But if you show someone a 20 year old black and white picture of him and ask whether this is Niko or Philly Joe Jones, most people will mistake him for me.... I am so curious what the liner notes will say...

I just reread the chapter about Denis Charles in Amiri Baraka's Black Music, a 1963 article published only later in that book. In there, Charles says that he didn't own a drum set until Buell Neidlinger bought him one in 1957 and that until then he'd been practicing on Frank's set... so Frank/Huss did own a trap set and was evidently talented enough a percussionist to record with Ed Blackwell, Sonny Rollins and Archie Shepp - even though always as his brother's sidekick/keeper/who knows and never on a drum set... still, in that combination, I'd say it's completely possible that he might have played a few local gigs with Kenny Dorham... Roger Blank, another percussionist from that circle remembers playing with Dorham on gigs like this in As Serious As Your Life... btw, regarding the claim about photos as proof of someone's presence, this is potentially tricky when it comes to brothers... for more on false names and cabaret cards, see e.g. the discussion of alto player Leon Rice here

thanks for pointing this out - I'd always been curious about Filet of Soul due to the combination of saxophonists - Anthony Ortega and Lorenzo Holden... but that other album with Willie Smith and Carrington Visor looks interesting as well... (John Tynan in a 1961 Downbeat article: "Visor is a furious player, rushing passionately ahead with shades of Harold Land all about him. He generates quick excitement with the resoluteness of each attack and is a tenor man to be reckoned with in any session.") And somehow, I'd consider it a bit too early to be real cheesy... but then again, there are many varieties of cheese... I'll certainly look into this...

Not David, but the answer is yes, for instance, the recording has been listed here for years with precise track times (April 1967) https://jazzdiscography.com/Leaders/DorhamKenny-ldr.php Edit: or just look at the first 2006 posts in this thread hetr ... However, there seems to be more music this time...

Maybe Denis had lost his cabaret card and used his brother's name... I am sure the jazz detective has a good explanation and didn't just pick the name with the greatest sales potential among all borderline plausible ones...

I went that route and got an LP copy of Other Afternoons last weekend without playing it before... It's awesome, a Cyrille master class...

probably not quite hype, but I did see some enthusiastic discussion of the new Jeff Parker and Anna Butters albums from last year... but I agree, there is less talk about the label (which, in a sense, is probably less relevant than talk about the releases themselves)

it's page 117 in the Jazzfinder 49... Doubting a bit if it's really the same label though...

Billboard 23 October 1948 HOLIDAY LABEL BOWS NEW YORK, Oct. 16.—A new label, Holiday Records, made its debut here this week with entries in both folk and race fields. The waxery, headed by Nelson Lewis, former sales manager for Disk Company of America, has pacted 12 distributors thruout the country, with Phoenix Disk handling local sales. The initial wax offering features Ken O’Rourke with the Rhythm Rangers, and the Starlight Gospel Singers. Billboard of 30 October 1948 mentions K. O’Rourke & The Rhythm Rangers (Sweet Doll) Holiday 3001 and K. O’Rourke & The Rhythm Rangers (Don’t Sigh) Holiday 3001 that record can be seen here https://mail.45worlds.com/78rpm/record/nc984027us the design is completely different... whatever that means, if there were actually two Holiday Record Companies in New York around 1948... or if they decided to change the design going from the first to the second record...

Previously, that credit was to Russ Charles or Hersh Charles... Denis sure is the more intriguing possibility... Wonder whether it's just intuition or whether there's actual evidence... https://jazzdiscography.com/Leaders/DorhamKenny-ldr.php

and one more article from Billboard 25 September 1948, so about a year earlier New Indie Set On Disc's Wax NEW YORK, Sept. 18.— Utilizing soma 600 masters acquired from Moe Asch's Disc catalog, a new indie is opening shop here under the name of Holiday Record Company. Nominal owner and director is Nelson Lewis, formerly with Disc as sales manager, but backing is understood to have been put up by George J. Erlinger, owner of the Eastern Record Company plant. Half of the masters were purchased by Erlinger from Asch, the others from the Clark Phonograph Record Company in Newark, N. J. George Clark has acquired masters from Asch, who had assigned them to Clark in advance of pressing as security against pressing charges. When Asch defaulted, Clark kept possession. Lewis said that the Holiday label will aim for a mass rather than a cultist sale, with emphasis on race, jazz, rural and authentic folk material. The platters, all 10-inchers, will retail for 79 cents, with the first release of six due next week, including sides by Charlie Ventura, Errol Garner, Muggsy Spanier and Lonnie Johnson. Eastern Records will press, and distribbing will be done by some of the distribbers who had handled the Disc line. Phoenix has been set as New York distribber and Downbeat on 2 December 1949 - so a bit later Granz Suit Takes A Different Twist New York—Norman Granz’ efforts to regain the Jazz at the Philharmonic masters cut for the Disc label have taken a new turn with the elimination from the picture of George Erlinger. who had claimed the masters. Erlinger has sold the platters to Joseph J. Corn, who is now the sole defendant in Granz’ suit to get the wax back. Production on the records has been stopped for several months as the result of an injunction obtained by Granz. Corn, meanwhile, has given an option on the masters to the new Arco label to be put out by the American Record company of Newark, N. J. If Granz fails in his efforts to get the masters, Arco would put out the records in a royalty deal with Corn.

thanks! (also for posting the Byard link) this one is pretty cool https://www.ebay.com/itm/316176350659?itmmeta=01JKED5GFE23D8CHHG55N7B7DZ&hash=item499d943dc3:g:Sw4AAOSwKUlnnj2Y Karlheinz Stockhausen advising Corea that he needs to listen to this album with headphones...

I looked a bit into the label, Holiday Records of New York on archive.org and google books... a label like that is mentioned in a book called "The Jazzfinder '49", the Holiday Records Company ("Records Co" it says on the label of the Byard record) at 353 East 32nd St New York, NY. In a book called "The R & B indies" by Bob McGrath of which I could only see snippets there was this address as well as 3 East 43rd St New York, NY and two names, George Erlinger and Nelson Lewis. No clue so far about Lewis but Erlinger appears in a book called The Birth of Folkways Records (here). Apparently, he took over Disc Records from Moe Asch in 1948. In the July 1949 issue of Variety we read that Holiday Records Co. Inc., chartered to conduct a recording business, and Holiday Record Distributors Inc. chartered to carry on business, with the same directors and with a capital stock of 200 shares, no par value, for each. and in the 23 September 1949 issue of Downbeat, we read that Granz Halts Disc Use Of JATP Sides New York—Norman Granz has been granted a temporary injunction against George Erlinger and joins Disc from using either Granz’ name or Jazz at the Philharmonic in conjunction with the production, distribution, or sale of records. Platters in question are JATP albums volumes 2, 3, 4, and 5. Erlinger, who founded Disc in 1947 with Moe Asch, took over the company from Asch in 1948. Granz claims the JATP platters released on the Disc label were made under a deal with Asch personally and he refuses to honor the transfer of rights to these masters to Erlinger. Granz charges that since Asch left Disc in 1948, Erlinger has been producing JATP albums in violation of his, Granz’, rights. Granz says he is legal owner of the masters, wants them delivered to him, and wants an accounting from Erlinger and a permanent injunction against further production. Granz has a $100,000 damage suit pending against Erlinger and Disc. The temporary injunction was granted pending trial of the suit. If he recovers the masters, Granz will probably turn them over to Mercury records, with which he now has a contract. so at this point, the best guess for the story of the label is that it was started in July 1949 by Erlinger for his own non-Asch operations and then went downhill in September of the same year when Erlinger got into legal trouble... Wish I still had the newspapers.org subscription... then again, maybe it's better I don't... I could imagine that there is more in some of the US legal databases...

I still play Bachelor No 2 a few times a year, didn't think others would remember it

Marcuse as the easy one and Nietzsche as the brain-melter this time? (I haven't read either author, but one of my ancestors went to high school with Nietzsche and even visited the family at home... and many years ago I helped one of Marcuse's former assistants set up their computer system... so I have a distant connection with both)

yes, indeed... I never asked but it seems the policy is to keep the two boxes with new arrivals by the door fairly balanced across genres and to exchange its contents quickly... I guess that on a given day there are about 5-10 new jazz records, rarely fewer, occasionally quite a few more, like 30 or 40... and sometimes, when there is a lot of stuff, some of it goes straight to the basement room with bargains... but with a collection like this one (which has fairly characteristic stickers with numbering), apparently about 2000 records with 90% oldtime jazz, putting them all out there at the same time would completely flood the place... so they take their time with pricing etc / mix with other collections... I did get two nice Bechet records from this collection as well, a reissue of one of the Blue Note LPs with Art Hodes, and the Swaggie LP with the Bechet-Spanier Big Four...

read a bit myself again, like this article about Jean Goldkette's origins... http://vjm.biz/138goldkette-article.pdf wonderful stuff... The O'Bryant record came from a huge collection that is being offered to us in small pieces... I must have bought like 30 records (even one today, Dave Brubeck's Jazz goes to College), loads of wonderful stuff, including some more jug band type things... I only had this strong reaction to this record, but I'll listen again and report back (not in this thread though). Generally, it just hurts to see, say, a complete run of Graeme Bell albums, knowing that - given my space restrictions - taking seven of the Earl Hines solo albums is crazy enough... especially since there are not many collectors left who even know who Graeme Bell was...

just looked up the review again, it's in the 23 January 1969 issue... the review is by Dan Morgenstern, no less, and it's one of the harshest reviews I've read in Downbeat.. only * actually, not *1/2 The O’Bryant album, part of the first release by Biograph Records, a new branch of Historical devoted to material leased from the Paramount catalog, is a horrible mistake. Perhaps we need to know that bad music was made by jazzmen of the ’20s, but 12 tracks of mediocre “hokum” music seem a needlessly sadistic way to belabor that obvious point. O'Bryant, a much-recorded Chicago-based clarinetist, died young, probably in the mid-1930s. The liner notes state that he was a major musician, but his music nullifies the claim. That he was once mistaken for Johnny Dodds (on other records than these) proves only that some people have tin ears. Not even Jimmy Blythe's excellent piano can redeem this set, especially since he only has one short solo spot. Jasper Taylor plays nice washboard, but washboard can’t save the day. The sole ray of musical light is shed by Bob Shoffner, who appears on one track. This is a collection of some of the corniest music ever rescued from well-deserved oblivion. In fairness to O’Bryant, it must be noted that he could play better than he did here (the records were deliberately corny—the laughing clarinet was the forerunner of the honking tenor). In principle, yes, some people must have liked the music better than Morgenstern, otherwise it would never have been recorded and reissued... when I got the record (it was supposed to cost 3 Euro but it was on sale for 1 Euro iirc) and first played it, I just felt it get on my nerves in a way few records do... so I started to read around a bit and found the Morgenstern review spot on... Regarding online resources for old-time jazz, I can also recommend the collection of articles here: http://vjm.biz/articles.html

I always get to think when I walk by that place (Oudeschans 75 in Amsterdam, also visible on google maps)... since those days, the building has been completely refurbished, and where it says "BIMHUIS" in the picture (BIM = Association of Improvising Musicians, HUIS = house) it now says "Luxury Suites Amsterdam"... (and, of course, the BIMHUIS also still exists, in another location, much fancier than before)

I have quite a few records I'll unload when it happens, all bought for less than 10% of the current price of a new LP (which suggests that as an investment those records didn't do too well between the time of their creation and now)...I mean: some of those old-time jazz records I really like a lot... but others I am only keeping because no shop will take them... a few are so awful I'll probably give them away for free in the near future (this one for instance had a *1/2 review in Downbeat for a reason when it appeared in the late 60s). Back on topic: I also have a few Bechet records but I don't really get him... will not buy additional ones (except if I see the one with Solal...) Regarding that boxset bargain, I guess what helps is when a record is mistaken for a book...