Guy Berger

This is gross but also a useful reminder that misogyny is still pretty common in jazz. I was referring to the first thing. Part of what can make jazz less unwelcoming to women is us collectively establishing strong norms against behavior that is harmful to women. That includes saying “it is bad for people in positions of power to be in sexual relationships with new entrants to the profession” (which might also benefit young men facing a similar situation, fwiw)

I know it’s probably just Google screwing up but I chuckled at Charlene and Quince

Lloyd talks a lot about his Memphis roots - it’s a shame that period of his career was never documented, though this is a great find

Dan, there seems to be a widespread feeling that jazz is traditionally not welcoming to women (especially instrumentalists). In other fields with this problem, it’s generally recognized that behavior like Coleman’s contributes to it. Do you not think it should be frowned upon?

This is it in a nutshell, and is true regardless of the other specifics of the case. I’d add that, aside from his ethical responsibilities as a mentor and educator, Coleman also had professional responsibilities as her employer. Finally, I think it’s worth stepping back. Woman are underrepresented in jazz. This kind of stuff (which unfortunately is probably not limited to this one incident) reinforces that problem.

Ok! So I am curious what led him to document stylistically different music in the final ~20 years of his life! Maybe he thought that was under documented up until that point?

Hmmmm. What was represented on recordings DID change... was this at MRA’s instigation, or the record labels’ decision?

A few years back I went and listened to a bunch of Muhal Richard Abrams - the Delmarks, the solo piano album Afrisong, the Black Saints and then 6-7 thereafter. Those 80s and 90s Muhal albums are mostly tightly linked to the jazz tradition, with the exception of the duets album with Roscoe Mitchell. But I can’t really say that about the final few albums - the 3 Pi albums plus the 2 chamber music recordings. Even the duets disc with Fred Anderson on Pi is really abstract. What prompted this change?

This kind of relationship from an employer and educator is wildly inappropriate no matter what.

The 3 Black Saint albums with Cyrille I like a lot; am less crazy about the two Black Saints w/Borca I should check out the Hat!

Isis is great, I’d be fine with never hearing the rest again. Joey is one of the most annoying Dylan songs I have ever heard

It’s a nice one. If we’re gonna trash a Dylan album, how about Desire?

Disagree. The band sounded better with Coles, especially on ensembles.

Campy crypto-Nazi musicians are oh-so-funny

Exactly. Very strong parallels

No real twist here - it’s a thread about the history of Nazi-friendly perspectives in Germany after WW2

Yup. But to paraphrase, this thread needs the reminder now more than ever.

Interesting article: Myth of the clean Wehrmacht

the first post in this thread should probably have been “German pop singer thinks Nazis are not so bad”

Wait - what?

Finally listened to the 1965 band. I may change my mind over time but I’d put this firmly into the 2nd or 3rd tier Mingus - music that I enjoy but not something I expect to return to a lot. I recall reading at least one set of liner notes (Mingus Dynasty?) in which Mingus also expresses this ambivalence. He also criticizes Charlie Parker’s imitators in the same liner notes. I suspect Mingus had a lot of mixed feelings about Ornette. Mingus had been playing proto free jazz in the mid 1950s before Ornette came on the scene. Ornette was also a big influence on Mingus’s post-1960 music. Some of his comments might have been sincere, some were probably just competitive jealousy. (Also interesting to compare Mingus’s reaction to Miles Davis’s.)

Coleman lost his lawsuit: Link

This sucks.

What happened is the range of musical possibilities opened up, and Konitz took wonderful advantage of them!

I picked up the Covina disc via band camp & mail order. Looking forward to hearing it. Not gonna get vinyl