Guy Berger

You could use Evans for good or for evil. Tyner was mostly just good

Hmmm. I like McCoy Tyner waaaaay more than I like Bill Evans, but Evans’s influence was huge. Three super-significant acolytes (Hancock, Corea, Jarrett) and impact on everyone from Oscar Peterson to ECM

Yeah. My gut is you could have (at least to some extent) made Sahara sound like Asante or vice versa. The underlying music just isn’t that different

I agree that Tyner’s early Milestones can sometimes be excessively monochrome. (They have other strengths.) Also agreed that Sama Layuca is a nice exception. But I wonder if this could have been averted somewhat with different recording choices.

How much of this reflects differences in how the music was recorded, vs differences in the underlying music? The late BNs to some degree benefit from benign neglect whereas the Milestones were recorded with savvy marketing in mind?

How much of this reflects differences in how the music was recorded, vs differences in the underlying music? The late BNs to some degree benefit from benign neglect whereas the Milestones were recorded with savvy marketing in mind?

Agreed on Another Place being really good. Larry, his album w/Rudresh Mahanthappa (APEX, on Pi Recordings) is excellent too.

I don’t have an encyclopedic collection, but I don’t hear the BNs as particularly conservative. They are generally more adventurous than the Atlantics (especially the early Atlantics) and about comparable to the 1971 Science Fiction sessions. Separate point: it’s be an interesting essay for someone to write how for listeners/musicians of a certain age, the BNs and Columbias (and maybe Impulses?) were the main entry point into Ornette’s music rather than the Atlantics. Another fun essay would be how when, in the early 80s you had the “neoconservative” turn in institutional jazz (Wynton/Crouch/JALC), it embraced early Ornette (through the first 1-2 Atlantic albums) and basically ignored everything that came after

This thread is a good reminder for me to listen to the Golden Circle recordings again. Sooooo good.

MONEY IN THE POCKET *was* actually recorded live at The Club in March 1966. (The album wasn't released until 2005, though excerpts were released as singles in 1966.) I've never seen it spelled out, but I wonder if the initial plan was to release a live album recorded at The Club, then for whatever reason Cannonball/Capitol decided against releasing that recording and went into the studio to record Mercy Mercy Mercy as "faux-live-at-The-Club" . For those who haven't heard it, BTW, Money in the Pocket - imho one of the best Cannonball live recordings.

We mandate vaccination in lots of contexts, in most countries. George Washington mandated variolation against smallpox for soldiers in the US continental army! This idea that it's somehow liberty-destroying to require vaccines is kooky and ahistorical. It's comparable to requiring people not to drive when they are inebriated with alcohol. This is in fact the middle ground - vaccine requirements (with some allowance for immunity via prior infection), and relatively light restrictions otherwise (I'd put indoor masks during periods of high transmission, and requiring contagious people to isolate, in the same bucket). I'm mostly in Steve's camp here. Per infection, COVID is less dangerous to kids than a lot of other things that we take for granted in our day to day lives. A case of RSV (for very young kids) or the flu is more dangerous. That said... when transmission is extremely high in an area, that can move the meter in terms of the number of bad outcomes for kids. If COVID is half as dangerous as RSV for kids but three times as many kids contract it...

This version of “Sack o Woe” is better than the one from the Lighthouse.

IMHO Lloyd's "complex" reputation with the jazz community would be much more positive if his 1960s recorded legacy had been limited to the Cannonball & Chico albums, the two Columbia albums, and Dream Weaver.

I share your love for those albums. My fave of the bunch is probably IN EUROPE, followed by NIPPON SOUL.

this is an excellent album. i'm glad I have it on cd - it's not available on spotify.

I'd have to see the actual data for record sales to be sure (I am not sure how accurate Keepnews is about timing), but my gut is it was driven by the economy. The Iran crisis led to a big spike in oil prices in April; the unemployment rate started rising in the summer; and the economy tipped into a short but severe recession in early 1980.

It's expensive here in the US, but frequent rapid testing is an underrated risk minimization tactic that can make indoor family/friend gatherings much safer. If you can afford it, consider it! Also, I know it is not practical in large parts of the country during the winter, but meeting outdoors (even if briefly) is far safer than indoors. IMHO seeing family and friends is really important; we have many ways to reduce the risk to nearly nil, we should encourage people "do this with appropriate precautions" rather than "don't do this".

Yup. File this debate in a dusty archive next to "the Wynton Wars" Laughing so hard right now... contender for post of the year

I would not ignore the impact of high quality immunity (3 shots or hybrid) in reducing transmission, even if imperfect. But you're right about the general assessment: whether due to "inherent" transmissibility or immune evasion, it's likely to infect a lot more people than prior variants in the same circumstances. Thinking a little further ahead: an estimate from Trevor Bedford (a well regarded virologist or immunologist - don't remember which) was that once we reach endemicity, we'd have something like 40K-100K COVID deaths every year in the US. The bright side is that's a lot less than 2020 or 2021, and hopefully we can get there relatively quickly. The bad news is: it's equivalent to ranging from "moderate flu year" to "very bad flu year", on top of the actual flu of course (which kills an average of 36K Americans every year). We're not going to zero or anything close to it.

"Immunity hardly seems to exist for Omicron" isn't correct, respectfully. Link There's evidence that for *infection* (that is detectable by some sort of diagnostic, regardless of severity of symptoms), prior infection without vaccination or a "basic full vaccination" (1 dose of J&J or 2 doses of AZ/Moderna/Pfizer) provide weak or very weak protection against Omicron, though not necessarily zero. However, there's also evidence that efficacy after 3 doses or hybrid immunity (prior infection + 2 doses) is much higher. Additionally, it's important to remember that efficacy against infection is not the same as efficacy against serious illness - and it is likely that the latter is much higher. (This is why the mildness of Omicron might simply turn out to be a mismeasurement illusion...)

IMHO you should do it, if the doctor is willing. The 6 month gap is probably too long; experts are discussing 4.5 - 5 months as better. It's hard to tell how much of the apparent Omicron mildness is due to: 1) Genuine underlying mildness of the variant 2) Greater mildness due to much higher prevalence of immunity (whether due to vaccination, prior infection or both) 3) "Greater mildness" because more immune people become mildly symptomatic rather than asymptomatic or non-infected 1 is good news for everyone. 2 is relatively good news for people who have immunity, but bad news for unvaccinated people who haven't had COVID yet. (Though it probably varies among previously infected, 2-shot vaccinated and 3-shot vaccinated; also, kids are overrepresented in this group and they experience lower COVID severity on average.) 3 is bad news.

I agree that Evans recorded too much with a piano trio and would have benefited from partnerships with other soloists, but it should have been someone meatier/grittier than Cannonball. No need to add sugar on top of cotton candy. Jackie McLean, Coleman Hawkins, John Coltrane, Yusuf Lateef… some great possibilities out there that never happened

I don’t think Cannonball and Evans were a great combo. Too much light sweetness

0. But we’ve now had 2 Kenny G threads on this board in one month! People here loooove Kenny G content, he should collect royalties

The “challenge to snobs” is… not crazy