Guy Berger

Cannonball was not as influential as Sonny as a player, but more influential than Sonny as a bandleader

I think this is somewhat overdone. The S&P 500 is down something like 3-4% since Thursday. That's a small decline, not a bloodbath. It's still not clear how serious this new variant will be - to vaccinated & boosted people, to vaccinated but unboosted people, to unvaccinated previously-infected people, or to unvaccinated and previously-uninfected people. It's also not clear how contagious it will be compared to prior variants, or whether there's a differential impact on infection efficacy vs serious illness prevention efficacy. Within two weeks we'll have a better idea. I think everyone should be aware of it - and get vaccinated (most importantly) and boosted (if they are already vaccinated and 4-6 months past the 2nd dose) - but I don't think panic is warranted, at least not yet.

I'm aligned w/you and JSngry here. I'd describe a lot of the early Cannonball as musical dessert or "ear candy" - it's wonderful, sweet playing, but not necessarily with a lot of depth. The best stuff comes out when he's contrasted against, and matched, with deeper players - Miles, Coltrane, Yusef Lateef. Starting around 1962-63 that depth starts showing up in Cannonball's own playing as well - more of a tasty well-rounded meal with sweet parts rather than just dessert. The music he was making in the late 60s was genuinely visionary, and compares favorably to that made by his "peers" making populist/adventurous music around the same time (Charles Lloyd, Herbie Mann, John Handy). Miles picked up the baton in 1968-9 and took it to the next level.

What do people think of the two 1968 live discs of Joe with the Wynton Kelly trio that Verve issued in the 90s? I’ve spent a lot of time with Straight No Chaser recently and it’s enjoyable but also underwhelming given the names on it. Basically great musicians on a ho hum night - very different from Joe Henderson in Japan.

Funny you mention those 3 - I was thinking of Lake in relation to them. Threadgill and Hemphill are visionary composers/conceptualists, Blythe was much more of a "pure player" (Chuck once compared him to Lou Donaldson and not entirely unfairly). I think of Lake somewhere in between on that spectrum. Stuff I've enjoyed w/Lake - the Black Saint albums, the early WSQ albums, the Trio 3 albums I've heard. He's also great on Dennis Gonzalez's Idle Wild. I haven't heard any of the Gramavision albums!!!

I've personally found the live Crusaders albums from the 1960s fun, and higher-energy than the studio albums. Not essential but enjoyable, high-quality "jazz for the people".

Put me in the bucket of people who think that Coltrane would have to some extent followed trends in jazz that occurred after his death, as he did before his death. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have also influenced those same trends.

I realized we don’t have a thread for this guy, who is still active and making creative music. He’s recorded a lot of music and even though I’ve heard about a dozen albums with him I’ve barely scratched the surface.

This would be amazing - would pay for it Anyway, regarding the original post, who cares. None of us will listen to this

The music is awesome and essential listening. The studio recordings from this period are great too but give little to no hint of how intense this band could be. Also - while I’ve (not totally successfully) tried to get my hands on every live recording of WR from 1971 through 1974, this one has a pretty unique sound - different from the 1971 concerts or the ones later in 1972

It’s great, but I like Interstellar Space and Stellar Regions more. Wish we had even more recordings.

The OP is not a fan of ideas introduced into straightahead jazz after 1960

Agreed

Don Pullen & Keith Jarrett

Lack of women in the LCJO was still an issue as of 2018: Link “To be fair” this isn’t a problem limited to LCJO… sexism is still pervasive in jazz culture

It’s a lot worse than crossing the street without looking in both directions, because it also endangers other people - unvaccinated people (unless previously infected by COVID) are much more likely to transmit the virus to other people. The proper comparison is probably to drunk driving.

I love this framing, it’s exactly right. IMHO it explains Ethan Iverson’s dissatisfaction with the other (July 1965) live version of A Love Supreme.

Let me add - vaccine-administering clinics aren't going to check whether you qualify as high-risk or not (you just check a box on a form). We don't have a vaccine shortage in the US, and lots of doses get thrown away. The efficacy of the vaccines is shown to diminish over time. No judgment from me if you decide to get a booster past 6 months, even if you're not in a high risk category. I think it is somewhat unfortunate the FDA/CDC didn't choose the Israeli strategy of offering boosters to everyone. Even if the vaccines aren't perfect at limiting transmission, it makes a big difference. I'm really shocked by how much death the US experienced over the past 4-5 months, almost all avoidable because people refused to take a free, widely available vaccine. Over 10,000 avoidable deaths in Florida alone.

Strongly agree on Silk & Salt Melodies being great. Sources is next for me. I’ve picked up a few other of Sclavis’s ECMs. Rouge is the first one he did back with ECM in the late 80s or early 90s. Very good, not classic. Asian Field Variations is a trio with violin and cello. Very “third streamish”, very enjoyable. Characters on a Wall is with a conventional rhythm section of piano, bass and drums. Enjoyable but if you find ECM to be too sleepy, this won’t change your mind.

I thought the Miles Davis 1963 Monterey concert that Concord released was great. The Monk was eh, but that's mostly because diminishing marginal returns on 1960s live Monk accrue pretty quickly for me. I dunno. They're made available because someone thinks it's worth $$$, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Ideally, that allows the performing artists to make some $$$ to. Otherwise, I'm fine just locating unofficial recordings for what I am interested in.

I often enjoy Iverson’s writing (and playing!) but I take major exception to this claim: But we should also remember that the original albums signed off on by Coltrane himself are the definitive statement. Coltrane died well before his time! A lot of classic music had no opportunity to tbe “signed off”.

100% The distinction between jazz and popular music that we have today is to some extent “retconned”. To a lot of the musicians (and audiences) of the time, the boundaries were probably blurry and, to the degree they existed, many musicians felt comfortable criss-crossing. Stanley’s one of my favorite BN saxophonists - thanks to this thread I’ll have to listen to him some more

Good call, I agree w/everything you wrote

From Losin April 2, 1959 (9 items; TT = 25:55) CBS-TV Studio 61, New York NY CBS-TV broadcast (B) Show chatter Miles Davis (tpt, flh); John Coltrane (ts, as); Wynton Kelly (p); Paul Chambers (b); Jimmy Cobb (d); Ernie Royal (tpt); Clyde Reisinger (tpt); Louis Mucci (tpt); Johnny Coles (tpt); Emmett Berry (tpt); Frank Rehak (tb); Jimmy Cleveland (tb); Bill Elton (tb); Rod Levitt (valve tb); Julius Watkins (frh); Robert Northern (frh); Bill Barber (tuba); Romeo Penque (cl, fl); Eddie Caine (cl, fl); Danny Bank (bcl); Gil Evans (arr, cond); Robert Herridge (ann) 1 So What (M. Davis) 10:29 2 Introduction (Robert Herridge) 0:27 3 The Duke (D. Brubeck) 3:29 4 Blues for Pablo (G. Evans) 5:46 5 New Rhumba (A. Jamal) 4:27 6 Announcement (Robert Herridge) 0:17 7 So What (reprise) (M. Davis) 0:34 8 So What (reprise) (M. Davis) 0:16 9 Orchestral fragment 0:10

I agree with one point here - some of the most extreme gender inequities have narrowed in the past two decades. That said, I wouldn’t assume that means that others don’t remain: