Guy Berger

How long until this gets debunked?

Didn't Tony try to persuade Miles to hire Eric?

Personally, yes. Maybe not disposable, but dispensable. I can name at least 50, maybe 100 tenor players I prefer. The only Mobley album I ever owned was The Turnaround, mostly for Freddie's brilliant contribution. I think I'm fonder of Mobley than Pete, but up to a point I agree with him - he does seem to garner more attention here than some players I consider to be superior or at the same level. I'm not sure whether that is a reflection of his many appearances on Blue Note (remember the genesis of his board), the relative popularity of 50s/60s hard bop relative to older and newer styles, or maybe just the fact that his superiors have been discussed to death. Think of the "ink spilled" on this board on even more obscure/marginal figures. Personally, when I put on a recording with Hank, I generally find that I enjoy his playing more than I expected, which is the kind of thing that would prompt discussion. But he also released A LOT of recordings. A less generous listener could consider some of them interchangeable.

From Pete Losin's website: "Hank Mobley joined the Davis Quintet in late 1960 and immediately hit the road: Cloister Club, Chicago (December 26-January 8); Bradford Hotel Storyville Room, Boston (January 23-28); a live jazz program for Chicago's WMBI-FM (February 6); Kleinhans Music Hall, Buffalo (February 25); Village Vanguard, New York (February 28-March 12); Shrine Auditorium, Los Angeles (March 31); Blackhawk Supper Club, San Francisco (April 4-30)." link And "After the flurry of Columbia studio activity and live recording in the spring of 1961, Davis was relatively inactive during 1962. He was evidently unhappy with Hank Mobley, though he did not replace him until sometime the following year. J.J. Johnson was added to the group as another solo voice, and the Sextet was booked at the Club Renaissance, Los Angeles (October 12-19); Minor Key Club, Detroit (December 7-10); Jazz Gallery, New York (December 21, 1961-January 3, 1962); Howard Theater, Washington (January 12-18 -- Johnson apparently did not make this gig); Mardi Gras Club, Kansas City (May 18-27); Music Box Theater, Los Angeles (June 1-10). A four-night engagement at the Music Box Club, Cleveland (December 6-9) was canceled and rescheduled for December 27-30. Mobley is still listed as the saxophonist at the end of 1962." link I would definitely take anything in the autobiography with a grain of salt.

Wasn't Hank with Miles for about 2 years, going by Losin's website?

I don't see how anyone - even a diehard fan of the 1965-75 music like myself - could want to be without the Blackhawk recordings. They're great, close to the platonic ideal for middle-of-the-road (not too radical, not too populist) modern jazz playing in 1961.

It may have been that Miles was enthusiastic about Hank's playing initially (after all, the group was recorded officially multiple times in the spring of 1961 - something that didn't happen to any of the other post-Trane, pre-Coleman saxophonists in Miles's groups), but grew disappointed over time. Miles was gigging with this group (+ JJ Johnson) in 1962 but there are no recordings. Did Hank have an intensification of substance abuse problems during this period? He didn't record under ANYBODY's name in 1962. And that may also explain Miles's dissatisfaction.

I recently picked up the Lacy solos/duos/trios box on Soul Note and have been working my way through. "Only Monk" is fantastic - I really like it - but I found "The Flame" to be difficult going. Guy

No, it isn't. Bootlegs are releases of unauthorized and therefore illegal recordings and if linking to sites where they can be purchased causes problems it'll be Jim as the owner of the board who will be held responsible, not anyone else. It strains credulity to argue that someone will get into trouble for linking to amazon.

Why not just delete the link? Seems like this thread is generating fruitful discussion. For what it's worth, the policy of no links to bootlegs on amazon needs to be dumped - it's absurd.

Jason Moran

I agree, it would have been much more ethical to sell the house and donate the money to a good charity. But I'll point out that wrecking the house was probably not as wasteful as building it in the first place.

I've only purchased a few of these sets, but love 'em. They're being released faster than I can buy them.

Guy your #2 is interesting. Do you mean the music that is under the narration and what follows the narration? Does it appear to be live? losin link - scroll to the bottom The last three minutes are not from the Cellar Door, but from surfing Losin's site I can't figure out where they come from. Guy

I haven't heard the Benson recording in question. How does he play? On "Paraphernalia" (from Miles in the Sky) he doesn't sound particularly comfortable in a more adventurous format.

I'm glad to have both with and without McLaughlin. Keith Jarrett makes it pretty clear that he thinks McLaughlin threw off the band, but I never got the feelng this was a unanimous opinion among the musicians. A while back I downloaded as many recordings as I could of this band when Jack was at the drums - and they're great. The ones with Ndugu are not as wonderful, but worth hearing nonetheless.

Recently finished: RICHARD EVANS: The Coming of the Third Reich, The Third Reich in Power, The Third Reich at War (excellent trilogy... very depressing/horrifying) KAFKA: The Trial ERIK LARSON: In the Garden of Beasts (ok, not great) currently reading: ERIN MORGENSTERN: The Night Circus (about 70% of the way through, intriguing but I will wait until the end to make a verdict) DAVID MATTINGLY: An Imperial Possession, a history of Britain from 55 BC to 409 AD (barely started this one)

Also, "Double/Image" is on the BB box. However: #1: the edits of the music as presented on Live Evil don't exist elsewhere. #2: it's unclear what the last few minutes of "Inamorata" (actually "It's About That Time") come from, but not from the Cellar Door box. Guy

I was just listening to Charles Lloyd's Of Course, Of Course, which was recorded in 1964-65, and was wondering about this topic. Most of the great jazz guitarists of the 60s - Green, Burrell, Montgomery, etc - were working within various variants of the bebop style. (Even on post-bop recordings - think of how hard Miles struggled to find a guitarist for his late 60s bands!) By the late 60s we start getting a proliferation of post-bop and avant-garde guitarists cropping up all over the place. But what are the first recordings to feature a guitarist moving outside of bop - harmonically, rhythmically, or melodically? Obviously there is Szabo who started doing this around 62-63. Atilla Zoller, a little later (64? 65?). Sonny Sharrock starts showing up on recordings in 1966 (is there anything earlier?). I haven't heard Larry Coryell or John McLaughlin from this period. What about Jim Hall? Some of the stuff with Chico and Giuffre is definitely outside bop's sound world. And of course, the various guitarists in the Tristano circle.

Unless there was a second group with JJ, this was in 1962 with Mobley on tenor, and the Kelly-Chambers-Cobb rhythm section. As far as I know, there are no recordings, official or otherwise.

Hmmm, I really like the forum subtitles. But I like the idea of tags too. Tough choice.

I used to enjoy that site when I was more of a prog-rock fan. Over time, though, I felt his fusion interviews suffered somewhat from not being familiar enough with jazz. Still a great resource though. Guy

I actually like the idea of an index for threads, though Ubu's idea of tags (if feasible) would be even better and easier to implement. The search function is, in my opinion, cumbersome to use and not always useful. Anyway, welcome aboard!

Definitely worth checking out again. For me it's one of the great Miles albums particularly for its difference. Instead of standard song forms, he gets to experiment with atmospheric pieces to work with the film, and I think this is where he develops a lot of the minimalist, "gestural" playing that he'd more fully explore years later in his first electric period. Yes, I think it's a great one and I regret overlooking it for a long time.

Maybe among hardcore jazz fans... but if you look here it seems many listeners consider it to be his "best" album.