Big Beat Steve

My Prestige/Milestone twofer of that material got a lot of spins through the years and I still treasure it. I don't usually "wear out" my vinyls but this is one of the few cases where I've actually considered getting another copy of the same record as and when I come across one in significantly better condition.

Am reading the book right now - once you've worked yourself through the longish prologue about Denver Ferguson's hustling businesses into the MUSIC side of the subject on hand, it's really colorful and insightful indeed, and fills a huge gap in the history of black territory swing bands and 40s & 50s "grassroots" R&B etc. Strange though that the term "Chitlin Circuit" should appear to be THAT unknown (as the reviewer stresses). No doubt I've only seen a small part of this term's appearance in print but I cannot even recall how often I've come across it in earlier music literature on post-war Black music (some of it apparently printed not long after that alleged first-time??? use of the term in 1972) but it was very, very often ... Not an unfamilar term, then, but high time it is given some in-depth coverage. Another inter4sting character evoked in that book is Don Robey - his Chitlin Circuit background somehow doesn't seem to be mentioned to any extent when his Duke/Peacock label career is discussed.

Wrong. As long as you are talking to somebody OUTSIDE your sphere of applicability of YOUR law, TOTALLY WRONG. The 50-year P.D. cutoff date law is a law in those countries where it is legally in force. Period. And that makes sales of such material legal in those realms of the world. Public domain means that the erstwhile rights holders forfeit their rights after these 50 years (or 70 from a certain point of time of applicability). Period again. So go ahead and differentiate your discussions on this entire topic, if you will, please. And discuss the "thief" thing with those who come under the jurisdiction of "your" law. But leave the others alone. And as for conveniently ignoring things, see my above posts indicating numerous examples of cases of their reissues where - by all indications - legal arangements with the rights holders have been reached. Time to come to realize it isn't all either black or white in this debate, don't you think so?

Fine that this had made your day, then.

The thieves are elsewhere IMO. E.g. on download sites (at both ends of them). Fresh Sound complies with 50-year rules that are as they are in this part of the world, like it or not. The time when U.S. rules were the enforceable rules of the WORLD is long over. The thieves (if any) in the U.S. are at the intra-U.S. distributors' and retailers' end, nowhere else. So go complain there and tell them you will boycott buying ANYTHING from them as long as they carry stocks of "thieves' labels", how about that?

Dan, have you ever taken a closer look at those Fresh Sound VINYL reissues - ever? 1) Many of them carry production dates several years prior to 1987. 1986, for example, minus 25 means 1961 (which leaves a margin of several years with many of their reissues - simple maths). And there must have been a lot of tehm that were reissued prior to 1987. The "Jazz West Coast" book by Alain Tercinet that makes extensive reference to Fresh Sound reissues as ACCESSIBLE listening examples of the artists and recordings of WCJ was published in 1986. And the 1987 Fresh Sound catalog already includes the reissues up to no. 279 (all those I am aware of carrying recorings made long before 1960) out of a total of some 335 vinyl reissues done by Fresh Sound. So do your maths. 2) The small print on the back cover of many of those LP reissues says specifically that the reissues were made upon agreement with a) RCA, b) WEA, c) EMI-Odeon. Which accounts for quite a lot of reissues and reissue labels. And I'd really think they'd not get themselves into hottest water deliberately by indicating agreement with licensing companies if they had NOT made such agreements. Not to mention that the entire NOCTURNE catalog, for example, was reissued by Fresh Sound with the SPECIFIC endorsement of Harry Babasin (just check the Nocturne CD box). So who will know and judge for sure where deals with the rights holders were concluded and where they were not? 3) If you want to quote P.D. time spans, do quote the full statement, please (which, talking about the pre-1995 or pre-1987 laws, goes on to say "Other countries like Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands and much of Europe had protection terms that went from 15 to 25 years". Which just MIGHT explain their extended presence in the German record shops, for example, at that time. ) Finally, is there anybody out there who can offer conclusive proof that those other (quite non-Spanish) reissue vinyl labels that were contemporary to Fresh Sound and went down a very similar route in their reissue record programming, such as VSOP, to name just one, adopted a totally different royalty policy that adhered strictly to the U.S. rules?

If you read teh interview carefully you will notice that it is stated there that at the time of these reissues (80s/early 90s) the copyright laws all across Europe were set to a cut-off P.D. date of much less than 50 years.

Yes, this irks me too - in a BIG way. I could rattle off at least a dozen Fresh Sound "2 CDs on one" reissues that I've not bought just because I already had one of the two CDs included in each set and the other one was not THAT mandatory for me to want to get it by all means. HOWEVER - I think the marketing strategy behind this is a fairly simple one: Fresh Sound has reissued a LOT of material in their vinyl days that was just heaven-sent back then (because - as pointed out in the interview as well - the major labels just did not give a rat's ass about reissuing ANY of that). And now they are expanding their program but are of course rehashing (O.K., re-reissuing would be a nicer word) their former catalog on CD too, because a) those vinyls are long OOP, and b) many collectors have given up on vinyl and use CDs only. So all this would be fine with a newer generation of colectors. But as I have a fairly large proportion of those Fresh Sound LPs from the 80s (and will NOT part with them ) the value-for-money ratio of the 2-in-1 CD reissues is a bit slim for me. But that's only me ... And it's a reissuing policy that is not uniuque to Fresh Sound, unfortunately. OTOH, what I don't understand is that IIRC there have been some CD reissues of SINGLE LPs on Fresh Sound (now maybe deleted?) that have now been re-reissued on Fresh Sound in 2-in-1 couplings. A bit unnecessary. As for fidelity, oh well ... Japanese reissues are a different playground altogether and as long as their pricing and worldwide acesiblity is as it is it's a moot point to discuss about items that seem to vanish almost as fast as they appear. And maybe I am just a bit too tolerant on some needledrops because if you have embraced so many reissues from the 78rpm era you have learnt to make concessions (as long as the "noise" on these 78rpm reissues doesn't overwhelm the overall sound impression).

Good to see this clarified straight form the horse's mouth. But will the bottom line - that the "fault" in all this reissuing business lies with those "majors" who are unwilling to reissue recordings or keep them in print themselves - really stick with those who have made a point of being indiscriminately oh so wary of ALL European reissues?

My first Parkers (right after the 1945 Diz and Bird recordings reissued on that Prestige twofer) - at age 16 or 17 - were those on Dial (including one LP on the "Charlie Parker Records" label) and left a lasting impression on me, maybe reinforced by the fact that at about the same time I read the "Bird Lives" biography (yeah, I know what some of you are tempted to say now ... ). So I'd vote for the Dials too, not so much for those subjective nostalgic reasons but (though I dug into the Savoys not that long afterwards) because to me each of the Dials somehow epitomizes the concise, dense, down-to-the-point summary of the essence of bebop crammed into the length of a 78 rpm record. An impression that the Savoys somehow did not have on me to the same extent (whereas the Dexter Gordon Dials - that I first bought not long after the Bird Dials - in fact did too). So maybe there was something to the recordings on Dial?? (Yes I know others will refute this for a long list of well-founded musical reasons but there you are ... )

The early post-war Buddy Rich Big Band - as heard on Golden Era LP-15021 ("Great Moments) and on Hep CD 12 ("The Legendary 47-48 Orchestra", for example - was fairly boppish at times too, certainly not far behind the modernistic overtones of Woody Herman and many other bop-influenced bands -

Lots of interesting points brought up in the Discussion section under the link you gave. Amazing (and comforting) to see there are that many (way outside our jazz etc. collectors' world, it seems) who want the PHYSICAL product, not something out there on some "cloud" (as one of them said). Sounds familiar ...

Oh well, Brownie, you know how quite a few Americans have always been when it comes to "Yurp" and the "finer" points of its geography, territorial boundaries, etc.: Paris is located right at the Cote d'Azur, Heidelberg is on the banks of the River Rhine and both are located in the heart of Bavaria, of course! Details of geography? And getting them right, even? What for? Just an unnecessary burden when you are about to set off for a "Europe in four days" sightseeing marathon. Not to mention what many in the ranks of that "all-volunteer Army" would be willing or able to digest while on post over here ... Petty things that appear negligible. So CNN is perfectly in line ... (Nah, I am not taking a swipe at the U.S. population per se but if you look closer a a certain type of Americans you just cannot help wondering ... ) And this seems to tie in with what certain polls have shown about the alleged future importance of U.S. FOREIGN policy (and knowledge of foreign matters) to the voting populace ...

True, there was little about music I have an interest in either (though it was interesting to see that in the opening sequences of the camera going over those record racks, a Louis Jordan LP was clearly seen, and the same LP appeared in another scene - LPs in record crates - again later). But collectors being alike anyway, there were lots of sentiments that I could sympathize with, and being acquainted with several dJs and doing a DJ job very occasionally myself, I can also confirm what the DJs said about the hard top grasp attraction of handling vinyl instead of just pushing the music through computers.

French, Germans (and others in Central Europe), catch this if you can on your ARTE TV channel tonight at 22:15 h: http://www.arte.tv/fr/semaine/244,broadcastingNum=1281764,day=6,week=44,year=2011.html http://www.arte.tv/de/woche/244,broadcastingNum=1281763,day=6,week=44,year=2011.html Should be interesting/amusing ... Wonder how many of us will recognize ourselves in there ...

@Gheorghe: In a nutshell, Nils Hellström, editor of the Swedish magazine ESTRAD and concert promoter, got in touch with Charles Delaunay early in 1949 when the projected lineup for the festival materialized, and a couple of weeks prior to the festival the Swedish all star band (the "Parisorkester" as they were known) was all ready and assembled: Gösta Törner (tp; Putte Wickman (cl), Arne Domnérus (as), Carl-Henrik Norin (ts), Reinhold Svensson (p), Simon Brehm ()b), Sven Bollhem (dr), Alice Babs (voc). No matter what the (apparently prematurely printed) French ads and leaflets for the festival said and though the inclusion of the Swedish band was almost an afterthought, they were there and they caused a stir. A glimpse of it is here: Dragon DRCD 349: http://www.dragonrecords.se/cdframe.htm I doubt that live recordings by other European bands from that festival would go over or come across anywhere nearly as well ... such as in the case of some of the British bands that were booed mercilessly off the stage by part of the utterly uncivilized French audience that was still engulfed deeply in that Delaunay vs Panassié (progressives vs moldy figs) schism.

What, no mention of the SWEDISH ALL STARS band that caused quite a stir there? Not even mentioned in the lineup of the "other" bands that appeared there? (I'd say the Swedish headlines almost speak for themselves for us Germans. ) "Swedish jazz a knockout hit in Paris" "Every day was Christmas in Paris" "Fabulous Swedish success in Paris"

The pictures I've seen of him don't resemble that bespectacled person in the first pic, though.

Not wanting to be rude towards British music lovers, but to me that's not THAT surprising if you're dealing with records from the "collection" of someone who "lived" (and possibly worked) with his records in Britain. In my early collecting days in the 70s I bought quite a few secondhand records from record stalls in London (whatever one's student's purse could afford so secondhand items often were the route to go ) and there were several early 70s reissues of 50s music (both r'n'r, blues and jazz) that really looked like both the covers and the records had had a hard life though the records werent really "old". Despite visible scratches and scuffs the records played well enough (occasional pops and clicks but no skips) but the covers were relatively tattered in many cases - desite the relative "young" age of the records. Many of these records did get lots of spins on my turntables too but I can claim that in the 30+ years I've had them they have hardly deteriorated much more. 90% of their current wear was accumulated in the first 5-6 years of their lives in Britain. Same experience in the mid- to late 90s again when I bought secondhand records here and there in Britain again (no, not at Mole or Ray's where most records were significantly better, but these records clearly DID come from collectors' homes too). O.K., the price was right (and usually they were rare enough to take the plunge) but still you could not help wondering why on earth those who really cared enough about their music to buy special-interest LPs far, far beyond the usual throwaway hit parade fare felt such an intense need to seemingly get their grimy, grubby fingers on the playing surfaces of the records each and every time they took the records out of their sleeves. :D (Which evidently leads to other traces of wear too) Something I've hardly ever come across to taht extent with that kind of collectible LPs of relatively "recent" vintage when buying secondhand stuff in other countries.

Was Johnny Carisi somehow acquainted (privately or professionally) with Israel Crosby? Just a wild shot ...

Sorry, no. I don't like torrent sites (and do not have to make any excuses whatsoever for that) and I do have my own opionion about the pricing policy and pricing level of many Japanese CDs by the time they reach these shores ... (I would have been - and in fact have been - willing to take the plunge in lots of cases with vinyl, but CDs???) - not very often enough value for money for me there, given the hassle in getting them - sorry ... Apart from the fact that this particular CD was obviously OOP by the time I bought my Lonehill copy. Though I was not exactly overwhelmed with the Lonehill liner note layout either ... But hey ... there ARE "legit" CDs who seem to take pride in doing even worse... As for the "other" PD label mentioned by Allen Lowe, no discussion, no objection ... (see my earlier post mentioning them in connection with a re-reissue by another box set label surprisingly often hailed here, BTW ).

Ah well ... luckily I've been around here long enough to have become fairly familiar with your line ... affected "streetwise" attitude or vulgarity, at any rate it doesn't add tons of credibility that way, you know ... Those 360° blasts at certain reissue labels and practices sound more (as mentioned earlier by somebody else in this thread) that there is a deep feeling of "loss of exclusivity" at work. Anyway, as for shelling out real money, who are you judge with CERTAINTY who is a REAL cheapo and who isn't and who therefore deserves being paid for what kind of money? (No, I am not talking about those 8-CD sets discussed here only) After all legit releases have been known to have shoddy presentation, abysmal playing time and sub-par remastering too - and STILL they charge full price or more. As for who can afford to pay what, paying full price for something that YOU (of all persons) feel that it does NOT merit full price certainly does not mean that those who pay that money are the cheapskates around. After all you could do MUCH cheaper than that but prefer not to so evidently you're not being that stingy ... OTOH, saying NO to grossly overpriced reissues is just being sensible, not being cheap. A case of steering a sensible middle ground ... on the basis of what value for money looks like it is a fair deal to the buyer. Something to decide about individually and something that I would call "intelligent financial discretion" . Just like with ANY other purchase of goods meant to last in your everyday life. But in case you want to have ONE example of MY line of thinking - NO, I'd never have bought that Bird and Diz 1945 Town Hall CD from any of those "jumping on the bandwagon" Johnny-come-lately labels but only from Uptown because the question of who was coyping whom was just too obvious. But on the other hand I was very pleased (and felt excedingly comfortable) with picking up the reissue of Rusty Bryant's early Dot LPs on the Lonehill label because nobody else ever bothered about resurrecting that material on accessible sources that may have looked "legit" to fellers like you. So ... if you want to go look for your kind of "suckers", look among those who drool about their oh so precious hard bop etc. "legit" reissues but do not find anything wrong with covering their borderline interest areas (such as bop or swing) with cut-price P.D. boxes. Judging from previous recommendations seen around here, there are PLENTY of them around ... "Holier than thou"? Indeed. Hypocrisy? Too.

You do realize your BASIC line of "reasoning" could apply to ANY downloadable piece of music, even if in its "regular" (tangible) form it would be 100% legit and royalty-paying? You can always get something cheaper somewhere out there if that's all that matters to you. In the same manner you even could call anybody a "sucker" who'd pay twice or three times the price a reissue by buying a JAPANESE reissue instead of a European/U.S. one. Sound imnprovement can't 200 or 300% better, right? Or is it a case of fetichism?

O.K., then please set me wise, Brad: Why is it the Mobley in particular that makes you feel uneasy: - Are there recordings that are less than 50 years old as of the reissue date? If so, yes - that would be illegal even by non-US standards if no royalties were being paid. - If not, why him in particular? Is it that the heroes of hard bop seem to merit special protection? - If so, why? Would music being particularly dear to one's heart be any reason for "reasoning" like this? - Otherwise, why wouldn't you feel just as uneasy about the other examples cited farther above and elsewhere in this kind of threads where it SEEMS (no proof possible, after all) fairly obvious where the source material of budget-priced re-reissues has been lifted from? (i.e. from other reissues with largely the same tracks that had appeared not that long before and are commonly known and accessible) A CANDID answer would probalby help advance this debate.

Fame seems to be fleeting. This post title had me wondering if we were talking about Paul ANKA or Henry LECA (Latin bandleader of way back ...). But Paul Leka? Total blank ... "Na na na hey hey ..." yes, of course ... there was something ... omnipresent on the airwaves and pubilc events in the early to mid-70s even over here in various recordings/cover versions, in a way it almost stifled my very early interest in music due to its its totally inane, insipid character that blared from every radio. Only really something for those (over here) satisfied with being weaned on an exclusive diet of James Last and Les Humprises Singer .... ugh ... But those la-la-la singalong "singers" choirs of early 70s pop (decidedly NON-rock) music just made you go "yikes" anyway. OTOH in a way maybe I ought to be grateful for this kind of early exposure because that taught me early on to search out something decidedly more "meaty" and honestly "handmade" (rockabilly, swing, jazz, blues etc.) But oh well ... de mortuis nil nisi bene, so ... RIP indeed.