Big Beat Steve

My first Parkers (right after the 1945 Diz and Bird recordings reissued on that Prestige twofer) - at age 16 or 17 - were those on Dial (including one LP on the "Charlie Parker Records" label) and left a lasting impression on me, maybe reinforced by the fact that at about the same time I read the "Bird Lives" biography (yeah, I know what some of you are tempted to say now ... ). So I'd vote for the Dials too, not so much for those subjective nostalgic reasons but (though I dug into the Savoys not that long afterwards) because to me each of the Dials somehow epitomizes the concise, dense, down-to-the-point summary of the essence of bebop crammed into the length of a 78 rpm record. An impression that the Savoys somehow did not have on me to the same extent (whereas the Dexter Gordon Dials - that I first bought not long after the Bird Dials - in fact did too). So maybe there was something to the recordings on Dial?? (Yes I know others will refute this for a long list of well-founded musical reasons but there you are ... )

The early post-war Buddy Rich Big Band - as heard on Golden Era LP-15021 ("Great Moments) and on Hep CD 12 ("The Legendary 47-48 Orchestra", for example - was fairly boppish at times too, certainly not far behind the modernistic overtones of Woody Herman and many other bop-influenced bands -

Lots of interesting points brought up in the Discussion section under the link you gave. Amazing (and comforting) to see there are that many (way outside our jazz etc. collectors' world, it seems) who want the PHYSICAL product, not something out there on some "cloud" (as one of them said). Sounds familiar ...

Oh well, Brownie, you know how quite a few Americans have always been when it comes to "Yurp" and the "finer" points of its geography, territorial boundaries, etc.: Paris is located right at the Cote d'Azur, Heidelberg is on the banks of the River Rhine and both are located in the heart of Bavaria, of course! Details of geography? And getting them right, even? What for? Just an unnecessary burden when you are about to set off for a "Europe in four days" sightseeing marathon. Not to mention what many in the ranks of that "all-volunteer Army" would be willing or able to digest while on post over here ... Petty things that appear negligible. So CNN is perfectly in line ... (Nah, I am not taking a swipe at the U.S. population per se but if you look closer a a certain type of Americans you just cannot help wondering ... ) And this seems to tie in with what certain polls have shown about the alleged future importance of U.S. FOREIGN policy (and knowledge of foreign matters) to the voting populace ...

True, there was little about music I have an interest in either (though it was interesting to see that in the opening sequences of the camera going over those record racks, a Louis Jordan LP was clearly seen, and the same LP appeared in another scene - LPs in record crates - again later). But collectors being alike anyway, there were lots of sentiments that I could sympathize with, and being acquainted with several dJs and doing a DJ job very occasionally myself, I can also confirm what the DJs said about the hard top grasp attraction of handling vinyl instead of just pushing the music through computers.

French, Germans (and others in Central Europe), catch this if you can on your ARTE TV channel tonight at 22:15 h: http://www.arte.tv/fr/semaine/244,broadcastingNum=1281764,day=6,week=44,year=2011.html http://www.arte.tv/de/woche/244,broadcastingNum=1281763,day=6,week=44,year=2011.html Should be interesting/amusing ... Wonder how many of us will recognize ourselves in there ...

@Gheorghe: In a nutshell, Nils Hellström, editor of the Swedish magazine ESTRAD and concert promoter, got in touch with Charles Delaunay early in 1949 when the projected lineup for the festival materialized, and a couple of weeks prior to the festival the Swedish all star band (the "Parisorkester" as they were known) was all ready and assembled: Gösta Törner (tp; Putte Wickman (cl), Arne Domnérus (as), Carl-Henrik Norin (ts), Reinhold Svensson (p), Simon Brehm ()b), Sven Bollhem (dr), Alice Babs (voc). No matter what the (apparently prematurely printed) French ads and leaflets for the festival said and though the inclusion of the Swedish band was almost an afterthought, they were there and they caused a stir. A glimpse of it is here: Dragon DRCD 349: http://www.dragonrecords.se/cdframe.htm I doubt that live recordings by other European bands from that festival would go over or come across anywhere nearly as well ... such as in the case of some of the British bands that were booed mercilessly off the stage by part of the utterly uncivilized French audience that was still engulfed deeply in that Delaunay vs Panassié (progressives vs moldy figs) schism.

What, no mention of the SWEDISH ALL STARS band that caused quite a stir there? Not even mentioned in the lineup of the "other" bands that appeared there? (I'd say the Swedish headlines almost speak for themselves for us Germans. ) "Swedish jazz a knockout hit in Paris" "Every day was Christmas in Paris" "Fabulous Swedish success in Paris"

The pictures I've seen of him don't resemble that bespectacled person in the first pic, though.

Not wanting to be rude towards British music lovers, but to me that's not THAT surprising if you're dealing with records from the "collection" of someone who "lived" (and possibly worked) with his records in Britain. In my early collecting days in the 70s I bought quite a few secondhand records from record stalls in London (whatever one's student's purse could afford so secondhand items often were the route to go ) and there were several early 70s reissues of 50s music (both r'n'r, blues and jazz) that really looked like both the covers and the records had had a hard life though the records werent really "old". Despite visible scratches and scuffs the records played well enough (occasional pops and clicks but no skips) but the covers were relatively tattered in many cases - desite the relative "young" age of the records. Many of these records did get lots of spins on my turntables too but I can claim that in the 30+ years I've had them they have hardly deteriorated much more. 90% of their current wear was accumulated in the first 5-6 years of their lives in Britain. Same experience in the mid- to late 90s again when I bought secondhand records here and there in Britain again (no, not at Mole or Ray's where most records were significantly better, but these records clearly DID come from collectors' homes too). O.K., the price was right (and usually they were rare enough to take the plunge) but still you could not help wondering why on earth those who really cared enough about their music to buy special-interest LPs far, far beyond the usual throwaway hit parade fare felt such an intense need to seemingly get their grimy, grubby fingers on the playing surfaces of the records each and every time they took the records out of their sleeves. :D (Which evidently leads to other traces of wear too) Something I've hardly ever come across to taht extent with that kind of collectible LPs of relatively "recent" vintage when buying secondhand stuff in other countries.

Was Johnny Carisi somehow acquainted (privately or professionally) with Israel Crosby? Just a wild shot ...

Sorry, no. I don't like torrent sites (and do not have to make any excuses whatsoever for that) and I do have my own opionion about the pricing policy and pricing level of many Japanese CDs by the time they reach these shores ... (I would have been - and in fact have been - willing to take the plunge in lots of cases with vinyl, but CDs???) - not very often enough value for money for me there, given the hassle in getting them - sorry ... Apart from the fact that this particular CD was obviously OOP by the time I bought my Lonehill copy. Though I was not exactly overwhelmed with the Lonehill liner note layout either ... But hey ... there ARE "legit" CDs who seem to take pride in doing even worse... As for the "other" PD label mentioned by Allen Lowe, no discussion, no objection ... (see my earlier post mentioning them in connection with a re-reissue by another box set label surprisingly often hailed here, BTW ).

Ah well ... luckily I've been around here long enough to have become fairly familiar with your line ... affected "streetwise" attitude or vulgarity, at any rate it doesn't add tons of credibility that way, you know ... Those 360° blasts at certain reissue labels and practices sound more (as mentioned earlier by somebody else in this thread) that there is a deep feeling of "loss of exclusivity" at work. Anyway, as for shelling out real money, who are you judge with CERTAINTY who is a REAL cheapo and who isn't and who therefore deserves being paid for what kind of money? (No, I am not talking about those 8-CD sets discussed here only) After all legit releases have been known to have shoddy presentation, abysmal playing time and sub-par remastering too - and STILL they charge full price or more. As for who can afford to pay what, paying full price for something that YOU (of all persons) feel that it does NOT merit full price certainly does not mean that those who pay that money are the cheapskates around. After all you could do MUCH cheaper than that but prefer not to so evidently you're not being that stingy ... OTOH, saying NO to grossly overpriced reissues is just being sensible, not being cheap. A case of steering a sensible middle ground ... on the basis of what value for money looks like it is a fair deal to the buyer. Something to decide about individually and something that I would call "intelligent financial discretion" . Just like with ANY other purchase of goods meant to last in your everyday life. But in case you want to have ONE example of MY line of thinking - NO, I'd never have bought that Bird and Diz 1945 Town Hall CD from any of those "jumping on the bandwagon" Johnny-come-lately labels but only from Uptown because the question of who was coyping whom was just too obvious. But on the other hand I was very pleased (and felt excedingly comfortable) with picking up the reissue of Rusty Bryant's early Dot LPs on the Lonehill label because nobody else ever bothered about resurrecting that material on accessible sources that may have looked "legit" to fellers like you. So ... if you want to go look for your kind of "suckers", look among those who drool about their oh so precious hard bop etc. "legit" reissues but do not find anything wrong with covering their borderline interest areas (such as bop or swing) with cut-price P.D. boxes. Judging from previous recommendations seen around here, there are PLENTY of them around ... "Holier than thou"? Indeed. Hypocrisy? Too.

You do realize your BASIC line of "reasoning" could apply to ANY downloadable piece of music, even if in its "regular" (tangible) form it would be 100% legit and royalty-paying? You can always get something cheaper somewhere out there if that's all that matters to you. In the same manner you even could call anybody a "sucker" who'd pay twice or three times the price a reissue by buying a JAPANESE reissue instead of a European/U.S. one. Sound imnprovement can't 200 or 300% better, right? Or is it a case of fetichism?

O.K., then please set me wise, Brad: Why is it the Mobley in particular that makes you feel uneasy: - Are there recordings that are less than 50 years old as of the reissue date? If so, yes - that would be illegal even by non-US standards if no royalties were being paid. - If not, why him in particular? Is it that the heroes of hard bop seem to merit special protection? - If so, why? Would music being particularly dear to one's heart be any reason for "reasoning" like this? - Otherwise, why wouldn't you feel just as uneasy about the other examples cited farther above and elsewhere in this kind of threads where it SEEMS (no proof possible, after all) fairly obvious where the source material of budget-priced re-reissues has been lifted from? (i.e. from other reissues with largely the same tracks that had appeared not that long before and are commonly known and accessible) A CANDID answer would probalby help advance this debate.

Fame seems to be fleeting. This post title had me wondering if we were talking about Paul ANKA or Henry LECA (Latin bandleader of way back ...). But Paul Leka? Total blank ... "Na na na hey hey ..." yes, of course ... there was something ... omnipresent on the airwaves and pubilc events in the early to mid-70s even over here in various recordings/cover versions, in a way it almost stifled my very early interest in music due to its its totally inane, insipid character that blared from every radio. Only really something for those (over here) satisfied with being weaned on an exclusive diet of James Last and Les Humprises Singer .... ugh ... But those la-la-la singalong "singers" choirs of early 70s pop (decidedly NON-rock) music just made you go "yikes" anyway. OTOH in a way maybe I ought to be grateful for this kind of early exposure because that taught me early on to search out something decidedly more "meaty" and honestly "handmade" (rockabilly, swing, jazz, blues etc.) But oh well ... de mortuis nil nisi bene, so ... RIP indeed.

Really being realistic about today's world means not paying good money (hell, any money) for cheapass "product" such as these issues. Well ... paying something like the equivalent of one "regularly priced" (and regularly produced??) CD for a set of FOUR to EIGHT CDs does indeed seem VERY realistic to me (limited - presentational and possibly soundwise - value for limited money ). Fresh Sound and their pricing policy may be a borderline case in that respect, but given that Fresh Sound and Blue Moon, for example, do have the merit of covering uncharted reissue territory where no big corporations would EVER tread, there's nothing wrong with THAT segment of their product, therefore, IMO - needledrops or not (hey, how often remastering claims by legit reissuers really are alibi exercises?). (Yeah, I still want some tangible product too, I am afraid )

You don't. You're just being realistic in today's world the way this world it is. But if it helps you to maintain some self-respect, download some Cliff Richard stuff for free. (That much for who is going to benefit from those new EU copyright laws anyhow - certainly not those "po' session hacks having to eke out a living ..." - they won't be any better off than before)

If I remember those colorful Ray Avery mail order sales sheets from the early 80s correctly, they weren't priced THAT far below other, more "regular" LP reissue series. And of course those "blatancy" complaints will then go for those "Sounds of Swing", "Bandstand", "Ajax", "Ajazz" etc. etc. LP series (featuring strictly STUDIO recordings, no airshots) too, right?

See ... that EXACTLY my point I've made a number of times here about the "inherent" value of the Proper boxes vs. the Fresh Sound et al. labels. Provided the recordings reissued that way are at least 50 years old by the time of reissue these reissue sets (Proper, Spanish or any others) just are legit in Europe even if no royalty payments are involved and I do admit I do have some Proper boxes - for reasons of convenience - and some Lonehill items too, apart from a whole slew of Fresh Sounds because they cover uncharted reissue territory) So ... assuming we're talking about recordings PAST the 50-year European P.D. cutoff date that STILL may be shady to illegal by U.S. copyright laws if sold THERE (Stateside): I can fully understand those who rant about cheaply made re-re-reissues of major items that still are in print (or have been reissued only recently by legit labels - cf. UPTOWN reissues), but Fresh Sound et al. at least PARTIALLY have the inherent merit of reissuing stuff nobody but REALLY NOBODY elsewhere would have bothered touching for reissue at any rate. Just because these are recordings that are on minor indie labels that nobody would have bothered about aynwhere else. Least of all the majors. Or can you see many other "legit" reissuer companies falling over each other in a scramble to do a CD reissue of that "Jazz From The North Coast" LP (on the Zephyr label) or like items? WHEREAS in the case of the Proper boxes the (previously reissued) sources for their compilations are really fairly blatantly obvious. To name just one case: Please do go to the trouble to check the track listing of their Accordeon jazz box and then compare this listing to that of the Accordeon box set done by Fremeaux Associés in the late 90s (but still available as of late) and also consider that certain other items such as those by Mat Mathews have also been graced with reissues in more recent times. And now please tell me what your guess would be why they fell back on not so long ago-ish reissues instead of delving into really new first-time reissues of that kind of jazz (and there is a lot of that around!) that would ahve advanced the cause of the collectors by producing a COMPLEMENTARY box set to the FA box set instead of a majoritarily overlapping one. Any guesses? Which approach would be the easier way out? And STILL Proper boxes DID get appreciative writeups here fairly often - apparently from those (this is my guess) who took the opportunity of conveniently covering artists from the bebop (or at any rate the pre-hard bop era) in one sweep that they had very little of in their collections up to that time. Whereas the same collectors would rant about hard bop stuff (even if 50+ years old) that had been reissued by "those Andorrans". Why? Are hard bop artists more deserving of royalties than bebop or 40s swing (remember the 70-year U.S. cutoff date) musicians? This is what I call a "holier than thou" attitude. And it probably is what David Ayers referred to as the "hypocrites" above.

If you study those (im)pending changes to the European copyright law (plus the thread on that subject on this forum) then you will see that this coypright is NOT retroacive. i.e. the cutoff date for recordings that had already fallen into the public domain by the time this "law" becomes effective will remain as itn is - 50 years. Those that have NOT yet reached that 50-year cutoff date will henceforth be copyright-protected for 70 years. So you could nail down those reissuers for post-1961 reordings but not for older ones. As for being a U.S. buyer or not, isn't there rather much of a "holier than thou" attitude involved? (See the eternal debate of "Proper box" vs "Andorran" (in Fact, Catalonian) reissuers, for example).

Off course, but CD's are also tangible and downloads or streams are not. Yes, you can burn a download to a CD. If you have a record or a CD you have something you can hold in your hands. What happens to the entry in the disco if the website that offers the stream disapears? For me including digitital streams/downloads in a discography is a new step of wich I don't know what it means for the feature of collecting. Agreed, fromn that point of view that is something new and a break with the conventional way of indicating the source of a recording. On the other hand and as pointed out above, one parallel with already existing conventional discographies is that those that really are in-depth often include session entries where the "release" column specifies "private tape" or "unreleased". Now one future variation on that theme would be "available via download from ...." I'd really assimilate these download entries with "private tape" entries, i.e. you know the music is there but you have to use a different route than search out a physical record (released somewhere sometime in the past) in order to gain access to that recording. Not really THAT new in principle ...

a) Because you don't like downloads? b) Because you would have to convert/burn your donwloads to CD for physical archiving afterwards anyway and do not feel comfortable enough with doing that, especialy if ready-made CDs are that dirt cheap? c) Because you already have part of the material on CD and would like to get the rest but shy away from it because for some reason one or two particular CDs are either very expensive (for hardly any good reason at all) or unavailable? etc. etc. I for one am not overly keen on cheap packaging and lack of liner notes etc. either but if you have been in this collecting field long enough to have been forced to live through the utter darkness of shoddy repackaging, nondescript covers, awkwardly modernized artwork, lack of liner notes or session info etc. throughout the entire 70s (and often well beyond) you can probably live with the occasional "cheapo" packaging as long as it is only a stopgap and you do the bulk of your collecting with more properly presented CDs (and even many of those PD labels often come u with quite adequate info in their booklets). All in all it's a tradeoff, I think, just like many around here probably would defend their choice of "Proper" boxes as the purchase of them on artists they have huge gaps to fill with would leave them more money to buy "full-price" releases/reissues where they only need to fill individual gaps in a more targeted manner.

Checked the link inserted by Mikeweil above but could not see the Gryce set there. Does anybody happen to know which of the Jazz Lab LPs (with Donald Byrd) is included on this set? The one on Columbia or the one on Jubilee? As far as I can see from my vinyls both go by this same title. Or is it the Jazzland one that goes under the same brief title? At any rate, I seem to have 4 of the 8 but as each of the other four is likely to set me back as much as this set of 8 if I wanted to get a single CD of it now I might go for this set too.

Am I right in assuming that the bajoist on the right is Elmer Snowden? (After all he showed up in quite a few posts by Chris A reminiscing about those years )