Big Beat Steve

Thank you! That would have been my first Red mitchell leader date purchase too (but i did not and could not reply to myself). So here is my follow-up: My first Lorraine Geller leader LP bought was "The Gellers" (EmArcy MG 36024) (feat. Lorraine and Herb Geller, Red Mitchell and Mel Lewis) (Wonder how it is going to be before we will be back in Thad Jones territory? :D)

Exactly my experience and my feelings from that period (I started buying and actually collecting records in 1975 at age 15). During that 1975-85 period (and for a time thereafter) we had at least five (sometimes seven or eight) excellent and - among each other - well-stocked record shops downtown that always carried interesting items in the collectors' departments (jazz, blues, rockabilly, 60s beat, etc.) and you indeed had to snap up the items very fast if you saw something because they might never turn up again afterwards. I remember two cases where it actually took me 15 and 20 years, respectively, in those pre-www and pre-ebay days to finally get a copy of a record I had postponed buying when I saw it in the shop back then (and by the time I had made up my mind it was gone, which I regretted ever after). Nowadays only one decently stocked (secondhand) record store is left and the CD selections in other chain stores are nothing much to write home about. So while I am grateful for the new opportunities that the internet has opened up in the past 10+ years and take huge advantage of it, the thrill of making discoveries (that make a lasting impression on you) just isn't there anymore if everything is available that easily (even though lots go OOP too fast or are unre-reissued) and often only a mouse click away. Rummaging through lots and lots of vinyl bins in search of an item of interest just isn't the same like keeping your fingers crossed to see if that Amazon Marketplace seller will live up to his promise of having this or that CD available. Sometimes I wonder about the availability of the music we have come to take for granted these days. If everything is there to to be bought, do you listen just as intensely to EVERYTHING you can (and do) buy (as opposed to back then when what you found often really was a FIND)? Yet I am happy, of course, to combine the best of both worlds, i.e. the pleasure of filling gaps of long-sought recordings AND the convenience of being able to fill other gaps much more easily (as long as funds permit) in the CD era, though it often becomes a bit too predictable and assembly line-like. Somehow, as long as you DO find things, searching for items for your collection makes up half of the fun of actually buying them. Which maybe is one of the reasons why I never really felt a desire to get into the CHRONOLOGICAL CLASSICS series wholesale (and used it only to fill a few glaring gaps) and would NEVER have thought of dumping my vinyl of the same recordings in favor of that series - even if that meant that some gaps remained.

OK, now I will try to take this back a bit further in history: MY first Jimmy Rowles leader date ever purchased was this: "Let's Get Acquainted with Jazz (For People Who Hate Jazz)" on Tampa TP-8 (1957) also feat. Red Mitchell, Larry Bunker, Pete Candoli, Harold Land, Mel Lewis, Barney Kessel Lots of "first leader date" potential there among the sidemen of that session ...

More oddities (by the standards of THIS forum ): One that might make Brownie smile: Back in more familiar teritory: Would this series count too?

Here are a few oddities (underground collectors' releases from the early 90s) none of you are likely to have ever seen before:

I had a hunch all along this was going to run in circles. Trane just seems to be the most unavoidable musician on a jazz forum when it comes to name dropping. Had to look up who is on "Chambers Music", but I am going to pick the only way out of this "closed shop of jazz names" and state that my FIRST Kenny Drew leader LP ever bought was "New Faces - New Sounds - Kenny Drew Trio" (BN 5023) feat. Curly Russel and Art Blakey.

And yet we shouldn't consider ourselves totally "inarticulate" about music - that is, unless you assume "articulate" to equal ethereal ramblings about perceived spiritual qualities in musical details that no mere mortals would ever be able to figure out for themselves. I mean, one could probably ramble on and on and on about how this artist achieved the highest levels of sophistication by blowing that triply flattened 97th with that very special kind of "attacca" that only this or that older master had ever attained before him but would this leave even the ambitious and truly interested listener who is NOT a musician (or a musicologist) any wiser and add to his enjoyment of the music as such?

Same here. So you beat me to it. To carry things on, my first Wynton Kelly LEADER record I ever bought was the KEEP IT MOVING Milestone twofer (M-47026). Kosher (or halal ) enough now? So depending on your preferences use either "Wynton Kelly" (Riverside 254) feat. Burrell, Chambers, PJJ, or "Kelly Blue" (Riverside 298) feat. Nat Adderley, Jaspar, Golson, Chambers, J. Cobb to carry on now.

Dizzy Gillespie - In the Beginning (Prestige 24030) (My first purchase of a record including John Lewis and Milt Jackson, but it's a 2-record set with lots of different sidemen on all those tracks so there should be plenty of directions to go on from )

Didn't I say it?

OK, my fault, I got this wrong ... mea maxima culpa ... So I will herewith go on as follows and bring things back a bit further back in time: Tadd Dameron - MATING CALL (Prestige) (And it will be interesting to see if things keep revolving around "Trane" as the "easy way out" in this game ... So anybody want to go the Dameron, John Simmons or PJJ route? )

Dan not only has some valid points but he nailed it and hit the spot IMHO. The reason appears quite evident to me: There are a LOT of people out there who, the way, this term is commonly understood, can really be called collectors but are EONS away from anything resembling completeness, maybe because of lack of funds, maybe because they have only recently gotten started. And yet they listen to their music intensely, add more music regularly and constantly, are probably interested in the lives of the artists and the history of the music (ESSENTIAL if you want to find out more about what other related stuff there is you'd want to collect). Isn't that typical of ANY collector? IMO completists as described in JAW's post (i.e. going beyond sheer completeness of the recorded works, for example, into mastering/version/pressing/release trivia etc.) not only are "ultra-completists" but are really getting near the status of GEEKS or FETISHISTS or whatever. :D

OK, I am going to get back to Art Farmer. As I explored modern jazz more or less chronologically (I had developed a liking for bebop early on so started from there onwards) when charting (for me) unknown territory (artists) I tended to start with the "early works" of 50s "name" jazzmen. My first Art Farmer record therefore was "The Art Farmer Septet - Plays the Compositions and Arrangements of Gigi Gryce and Quincy Jones" (Prestige P-7031). What did the trick for me in this case, I think, was that I had already owned the Clifford Brown Paris sessions 3-LP set of 1953 for a long time and had always liked the compositions and scores of Gigi Gryce. And I wasn't disappointed here either.

If only they (i.e. the reissuers) always knew who owns what among the collecting fraternity and would be prepared to make it available ... I'd bet they often are up against a "No, nobody is going to listen to my pristine copy except me - can't let everybody out there benefit from 50 years of carefully cherishing my exceedingly carefully played copy" attitude Don't we all know one or the other selfish collecting hermit of that kind? BTW, I have no real complaints about Fresh Sound and similar "niche market" reissue labels but as mentioned above, it indeed is odd that the disclaimers often found on reissues in the past are now increasingly dispensed with, as if they all adopted a sort of "take it or leave it" attitude. That said, maybe some of those who complain about LP needle drop reissues ought to listen a bit mroe often to 78-rpm era vinyl or CD reissues to get their ears tuned in to some real hiss, pop and crackle. Not everybody is (or was) a John R.T. Davies, not every reissue project can be given the full treatment (as in the case of those hot Five box sets, so one hears) and very, very often the music warrants even a bit of effort to "listen through" that "period noise".

If I'd stumble across that one (or the like) in one of those clearout bins it would probably make me say "UGH" :D So it might as well be in that thread over there ...

Though these were U.S. pressings, "Archive of Folk & Jazz Music" (produced by Everest Records) was not a rare label at all in the "budget price" bins of record stores over here in the 70s/80s. I remember passing up a lot of these releases because their track compilations seemed to be rather random to me and the production (including artist credits) rather sketchy but among those that I did pick up were "Foundations of Modern Jazz" (FS-229, Period masters feat. Osie Johnson's Orchestra, The Jones Boys, The Birdlanders, Charlie Mingus) and "The Birdlanders" (FS-275, actually featuring the Henri Renaud-Al COhn Quartet, HEnri Renaud All Stars and Duke Jordan Trio all recorded in NY for the French Swing label and later released on Period in the U.S.). Obviously they picked tracks largely from the Period catalog; a Django Reinhardt LP I have (FS-230) includes scattered post-war tracks for the Blue Star and Swing labels whose only common denominator is that they were released on Period in the USA.

Please be careful. This is a door that VERY MUCH swings both ways. If it were so that each and every seller always gives 100% correct information about the item for sale and prices them exceedingly fairly then your statement would be totally true. But are all sellers always 100% fair and accurate? If somewhat doubtful practices aren't occasionally commented upon (which doesn't happen very often anyway), would this be fair towards those who are not aware of all there is to be aware of in this buying? I do realize that you may very well have been unduly targeted but all this isn't a totally clear-cut black-and-white affair where the sellers always are the innocent and the commentators are the bad guys. Like I said, some sellers being the way they are, some kind of corrective isn't the worst thing in the world in those cases where it is clearly called for. BTW, (and this is just a question, not any kind of reproach), didn't you - in the case you invoked - add your own reply to set the record straight (e.g. about actual non-availability of the record elsewhere) in good time before your sales chances were "killed"? I know I would have done so.

bump .... what's still available is listed above.

May I respectfully disagree on several counts? 1) Quite to the contrary, I find it rather advantageous that forumists other than the thread starter (seller) state, for example, that they have PM'd the seller about this or that item. If this place here really is as friendly as it is made out to be (and as the rules about not criticising a seller, as above, are apparently intended to underline) then it can only be beneficial for the mutual understanding of forumists to not get unduly in each other's way when they see that an item has already been spoken for by somebody else (and this also avoids them extra hassle if they know an item has been sold or reserved before thy got around to contacting the seller). Otherwise sales might degenerate into a "behind the curtains" rat race of who's been there first, who might offer more than the asking price in order to secure an item he wants badly (and sellers in those cases might in fact back off from the first come, first serve principle or only invite bids for their items - who knows?). 2) Being able to post extra info about items for sale (e.g. by those who own the same item) is something I also like about that place because it often does provide a clearer picture of what is actually up for sale. And as seen here, these comments really aren't trying to detract all that often, anyway - quite to the contrary. And not least of all - what is wrong with other forumists asking questions about an item (or maybe shipping terms or other required info) that the seller answers PUBLICLY so that everybody can benefit from that extra info? So do think it over, otherwise the end results might really backfire in a big way and lead to results that were not really intended and would do more harm than good! As you surely know, the road to hell is plastered with good intentions! And besides, generally speaking, what is the point of invoking new rules only in order to CLAMP DOWN on everything instead of changing rules in order to give more leeway? Has this section (or others) been working that poorly, really? "Stifling" might fast become the word, you know ...

I think you are waaaaay overrating the nature and character of most sellers and items on offer on Buy and Sell sections of forums like this. Some sellers may think of themselves differently (except when it comes to their tax statements, obviously ) but in fact we ARE INDEED talking about an online garage sale, fleamarket, private-stall record fair etc. here IMO, aren't we? And aren't we all haggling and comparing there everywhere? Have you never tried to "negotiate a deal" or told somebody off who tried to offer you items at rates you considered expensive (and in doing so haven't you told him you'd be able to get an equivalent item at so-and-so much less elsewhere)? And then online publicity and visibility works both ways, of course, too. You get more exposure that way but will have to live with the fact that thanks to this increaed exposure more people will be able to call your bluff too (if there is reason to call your bluff). Like most things in life, it's a tradeoff, and you can't always have your cake (more exposure) and eat it (i.e. NOT receive all sorts of just as exposed feedback).

You know as well as I do (I think) that a lot of the comments made here go beyond that particular case in question that started this thread but refer to the question of whether or not to comment on prices felt to be excessive at all and I suppose you also know how discussions focusing on the price levels of certain items on the market tend to evolve every now and then. Name calling and polemics are out, but IMHO pointing out (based on provable facts of what is available out there) that this or that price actually is inflated and purchasing therefore better to be avoided would indeed add to transparency in the sense of avoiding price levels spiralling upward no end just because awareness of the market is clouded artificially by avoiding discussions ... Checks and balances, you know ...

Obviously it doesn't only hurt the seller; this kind of information is very useful to less-savvy buyers. FWIW, I do feel that the above - and all of Big Wheel's further elaborations on that aspect - is the essence of all this. :tup Are those of you around here who so openly advocvate silencing those who find pricing of items offered for sale objectionable really sure you are doing the collecting community at large a service? I am in no position to judge whether the offers in the thread in question really were overpriced but as a general rule I do feel that this "unspoken" policy of considering speaking out openly about excessive pricing being "in bad taste" is waaaay over the top. Isn't it in even worse taste to charge inflated prices? So isn't it a tradeoff of which taste is worse, in the end? Do you really advocate sellers ripping off the unwary? Are you really in favor of letting price levels spiral upward uncontrolledly? (Those who want to push up prices can always find precedents of "that one sold it for so much then" unless the actors in these earlier precedents are called to task where necessary) So how does that tie in with other threads here where other forumists complain about exactly those practices and tendencies? Please note that I definitely would not want to advocate calling allegedly expensive sellers names or slandering them in any way. But what would be wrong about adding some transparency about what's available out there? And in those cases where there is objective proof of shortcomings in offers this obviously would including speaking out about those, for example, who charge excessively for something that IS available at fairer prices elsewhere. Remember just like nobody is forced to pay inflated prices NOBODY is forced to listen to those who say the item is too expensive or available at better prices elsewhere either But it IS reasonable IMHO to make the unwary aware of what, by and large, could reasonably be considered excessive. If you cannot tolerate that open (and therefore open-minded) forums are ONE way of balancing market/selling/pricing practices that often really are nothing short of a ripoff then where did your highly esteemed right of free speech in the land of the free go? All drowned out in the name of P.C.? I stand flabbergasted ...

Don't we all? :g

I understand Louis Jordan was rather sore at Ray Charles because to him it seemed his album produced and released on the Tangerine label was seen more like a tax deduction stunt by Ray than an actual release (hence the lack of promotion).

Well I'm assumerating that you're joking about that! Collectable LPs will retain value, I believe, but with very few exceptions CDs are almost worthless. Uh - I guess I'm not sure what the 'crazy' face means so I'm not sure what you meant... Well, actually I was talking about collectible vinyl, of course. And the crazy face meant you'd still have to be a bit crazy to go that route all the way. So - yes, it's all a bit tongue in cheek, but today's other "investment" options aren't that sane either, after all. )