Big Beat Steve

Have about 7 or 8 from the complete list, but agree with Ken Dryden and John L. I cannot see the point of making up such lists (however broadminded they may be) as personal tastes just differ WIDELY and nobody who comes up with such selective lists can possibly expect to really strike a chord with other listeners with different (however broadminded) tastes. And if I ever were to be stranded on some lonely island with nothing but a stack of records for my entertainment I'd certainly feel harrassed (if not to say terrorized) if forcibly exposed to free(er) jazz by likes of Ayler and Mangelsdorff et al. :D So what's the point? "Suggested listening" lists subdivided at least loosely by genre - O.K., but generalistic lists such as this?? I dunno ...

I'll leave the dissecting of this blog entry to Lee Morgan fans and worshippers but what I find strange about this latest spot are two things: - What new info does this statement you quoted actually offer? Besides, I seem to remember Lee Morgan's wife has been interviewed more than once before her death (this was the subject of another thread here quite some time ago). - I don't feel Lee Morgan's death has been that much overlooked, passed by, neglected or ignored. The investigations into his end seem to be fairly numerous, it seems to me as a casual onlooker in matters Morgan. If there is a death of a major jazzman that's been investigated insufficiently it's the death of Wardell Gray.

I am not sure if I've got Epistrophy's intents right, but it definitely is far, far easier today to accumulate a massive archive of recordings and/or complementary information of oyur favorite music. Two things have helped this immensely: 1) The arrival of the CD when many labels started to reissue items from the past in a much more coherent form, giving due regard to the "completists" in many respects (Chronological Classics, Mosaic, Bear Family, Proper, etc. etc.). If you are prepared to dump your vinyl (I'm NOT! and older CD's you can get everything with far less duplications and overlaps than you used to be able to back in the vinyl days. I'd say the reissue market has really been pretty good since the late 60s/early 70s but it took more searching, you got more overlaps and were left with more gaps of items never reissued, but at the same time it all was much more interesting and you tended to value your prized finds much, much more than you would today when it is just a matter of asking "When is the next Volume of the collected works of artists XYZ going to hit the market?" In a way, collecting has changed from searching, tracking down and finally finding (and jumping with joy about your finds) to a bookkeeper's attitude of buying streamlined products as they fall of the assembly line. 2) The Internet, of course. Over the past 10 years I've multiplied my own jazz mag and book archives as a lot of items (especially from abroad and overseas) became accessible that would have taken much longer and needed much more correspondence to track down in pre-internet days at all. This is a fine way to extend your knowledge, and yet sometimes it makes you smile .... Just take note when reading those old 50s jazz mags - sometimes you just can't help wondering how the experts and diehard collectors of those days managed to cope with their comparatively limited knowledge and resources; in some respects (e.g. in the discographical and biographical field) anybody who'd venture out today with the level of knowledge even the more erudite ones had back then would certainly be advised to get his act together and do his homework. If only the problem of limited funds weren't a permanent one ...

Crocojazz is nice but overpriced (especially for vinyl) IMHO. Paris Jazz Corner has a far wider selection, and Jussieu Jazz (all actually not too far from each other; within walking distance if you can read your map of Paris) ain't too bad either for CD's. And then there is the record/CD branch of Joseph Gibert (good secondhand CD section but a horrible mess of NON-order). If Brownie peeks in here again sometime he might be able to give you leads for your enxt visit to Paris. I was in the Virgin store on Champs Eleysees once last year but wasn't exactly overwhelmed. But some FNAC branches indeed have a pretty good CD jazz/blues section. But overall things are slowly going downhill there too. Prices keep going up, and more and more collector CD labels just cannot be found anywhere anymore. Seems like the shops just don't bother stocking them anymore if the margins aren't big enough.

Not weird at all, just obscure. I've had the VSOP repro reissue of the Rave LP for a number of years. This was a 1957 recording issued in between his Contemoprary and RCA Victor dates. According to the discographies this record (on Rave 101) was reissued on Tampa 35. Looking at your LP, I guess when Tampa secured the rights to this they also obtained a batch of unsold Rave pressings and marketed them as their own by just slapping their label sticker on it. Who knows ... might have happened with others too (Tampa reissuing recordings originally issued on Skylark, for example).

Nothing to add to the last 2 posts by JSngy. Seems we haven't really been in disagreement all along. As for some artists being "wired differently": Sure, and I don't think anybody will hold the way Bud Powell, for example, was "wired" against him (it more invites pity and sympathy by those who've been equipped better by nature to handle everyday life) but there is a HUUUUUGE difference between minds like Bud's (or momentary lapses in acknowledging the needs of others) and other artists who, while creating great art, actively and by their very own decisions and acts continuously treated their fellow human beings if not like shit, then certainly like lesser beings. And when a certain limit is exceeded there just is no excuse for that (and I don't think it always is a matter of "choosing to accept or reject" the reasons why one does things "that are bad". Some acts can only be rejected as long as there is a canon of commonly accepted standards of how to get along with each other).

Hey, gents, did it ever occur to you that English is not the mother language of everybody on this board? I'd venture a guess Durium meant to say Lee was "a bit past his zenith" (past his prime) by that time. In fact, reading the Dutch version I am pretty sure that's what it is. Debate open now regarding the relative merits of this latter-day opus of Mr Cool.

Exactly ... that's what I was hinting at all along. Thanks for summarizing it very much to the point, Bev.

Agree with what Seeline said. No matter how great somebody is as an artist, there is no excuse for mistreating or taking advantage of your fellow human beings. Even to artists the same rules apply as, say, to accountants (cf. JSngry or managers of multinational companies or ... you name it. Some (most, in fact, I guess) get away with it, but those who don't have had it coming to them. At any rate, I don't buy into this "a creative artist has to have severe personal shortcomings outside his artistic world in order to allow his artistry to unfold and every excuse is acceptable for this as long he is an artist of some stature and/or achievement". Artists are subject to the same overall rules that apply (or ought to apply) to everybody else. If you look back into the past century of popular music, there have been numerous artists (including jazz musicians) whose careers have faltered not least of all because they acquired a notoriety for being "difficult to handle", unreliable, untrustworthy, cheating on their fellow musicians, or even committing criminal offenses, etc. etc. I don't know if I got your reasoning right, JSngry, but have all those who've fallen by the wayside that way BECAUSE of their personal shortcomings and DESPITE their artistic achievement been treated unfairly? I don't think so. Not all of them were sick dope fiends in need of medical or headshrink treatment, after all. This would not prevent anybody from enjoying their musical legacy, but it would explain and justify reservations about according them unreserved star status in EVERY respect. Not more, not less.

@JSangry: Sure, but did you ever consider that if it doesn't matter to your artistic apprecaiation of any of those celebs one bit if they behaved like real creeps as soon as they stepped off the bandstand, then could it be that at the same time you invalidate any appreciations of OTHER artists who were rightfully acclaimed as being "one of the nicest persons you'd ever meet on and off the stage" (remember how often this has been said here, and usually for good reason, I guess). If it doesn't matter one bit if you are just a jerk then why should it matter if you're just a decent human being? (But it DOES matter!) Or, to name one example, is it that in your book all those who'ved had enough of that "audience blasting" by Keith Jarrett and will never waste any money on his gigs, etc. anymore are dead wrong? (See earlier discussion of that subject here) I have no problem digging the musical works (provided I like their music in the first place) of those where it is universally known what kind of jerks there were in all too numerous situations in life, but do they have to be elevated on a pedestal and showered with adulation as if they are superhuman heros (you know that often happens too, maybe in jazz not quite as much as in other realms of popular music, but still ...)? IMHO their lousy behavior just reduces them considerably in that respect. Enjoy their music - yes, of course - but worship them as heros? Nah!

See ... what you describe as being sniffy happened to a friend of mine at Ray's when she had picked a (rather rambunctious) R&B/R'n'R compilation from their downstairs "Blues & Roots dept." and asked to listen in (briefly) just to make sure ... The staff upstairs visibly winced at every note coming from the speakers. And I'd had slightly less extreme reactions once or twice before. But ... hey, no need to sneer at what you stock yourselves in your own (specialist) store, gents! :D So as you can see you're right about individual experiences. As for Dobell's, I remember in '75 to '77 there were 2 shops within a few steps from each other (though I seem to remember one was billed the "Jazz" shop and one the "Folk" shop, even though the selection they stocked really overlapped), and one or both seem to have been a sort of "downstairs" shop. Cramped, but full of goodies!

Can't say so. My trips to Mole Jazz (between 1992 and 2000) were always exceptional not only in what I found there but also in the way the staff were helpful and obliging (to the extent possible at all). Dobell's brings back fond memories to when I was there in 1975 to 1977 during 2-week stays there while still in high school. I found the staff (both in the Jazz and the "Folk" store, one of them must have been Doug Dobell himself) always very helpful and above all patient with the young budding collector that I was, rummaging through the discs for hours on end and ending up with picking 2 or 3 LP's (from my tight 15 to 17 year-old schoolboy budget). I can't have been their best customer, and the questions I asked cannot always have been the most enlightened either (as I was really just getting started) but I was always treated with utter courtesy (OK, maybe ol' man Dobell figured I wasn't that clueless as I literally jumped on that Cyril Davies LP on the Folklore label I discovered there - a Dobell production, as I found out a bit later - and there cannot have been many school kids from abroad buying THAT one ). At any rate, I often wished I'd been able to spend much more there. It was too bad I never made it back to London until 1992, and I remember my disappointment at finding out Dobell's was long gone by then. Anyway, on record stores in general, what's been said above is what happened here too. Our equivalent of Virgin or Tower used to have good stocks in the jazz and blues departments up until the late 90s but everything has been going downhill fast ever since. Some stores got bigger but "niche" departments got smaller and smaller. Maybe they just figured they needed not bother anymore after another independent local record store that used to stock a lot of major AND minor labels (and had a firm reputation as #1 for all jazz/blues/rock collectors) went belly-up around 2000-2001. Apart from the "Special Jazz Offers" bins in one secondhand record store and the local glance at the local 2001 shop my local record/CD buying in brick-and-mortar shops has virtually stopped years ago. Sadly ....

Nice idea, and amusing cover photo. Sounds like this band would be great fun to listen to, on record and also on stage, though their attire (and therefore visual impact) leaves a bit to be desired, compared to other roots bands such as the "Bo Weavil Blues Band" from France or your own "Ranch House Favorites". BTW, I wonder if they'd have ventured to breathe some "roots music" life into a society band ditty such as "FDR Jones" (and succeeded in doing so), though ...

Indeed. That was the point of my using Don drummond as an example. This example IS troubling. I'd use Frank Rosolino as another example. As will be known he ended his days by killing himself after having killed his sons (that is, one died and the other survivied with severe injuries which left him blind). What are we to make of this, seeing that even his peers were unable to figure it out, wondering that something must have been SEVERELY amiss with him for a long time because he had been known as a joker and funny face all his life, but as one musician said, "there must be something deeply wrong if you keep cracking jokes at a rate of about two per minute day in, day out!" I like his 50s and early 60s work a lot and have not really explored his much later work but admit in view of what happened I have little incentive exploring it deeply because I've asked myself the same question: How should I rate his music in the light of what happened soon after? Did he just play a role? Something must have been wrong for quite some time. While killing oneself is tragic enough (and not something we ought to try to judge), can excuses really be made for killing one's own children? I don't have the answer ...

I've found myself in the same situation that MG describes here and there. If you really like the music you do tend to make excuses but it all has its limits. I remember Allen Lowe had quite a bit to say about serious flaws in the character of Al Haig (a piano player I appreciate immensely), seemingly following the publication of a biography that gave some "insights" (that's putting it mildly, from what I've read here). It does disturb me too but I find myself making excuses in that most of what I really dig of his music are his 40s/50s recordings so maybe this was well before he developed this "nasty behavior". But am I right in thinking so? Do I want to find out? I don't know (yet). Similarly, I remember another thread here that focused on the same topic, including one backstage incident involving Dizzy Gillespie who seems to have behaved like a jerk towards Valerie Wilmer (to the point of T-bone Walker knocking him flat). Hard to imagine, but do we know everything that happened? And what else happened? On the other hand, there have been soooo many detailed accounts of the often downright cheap ways and manners of Benny Goodman (stating with reports on his cheap non-defense of Wardell Gray against racially motivated insults in his c.1951 band playing Vegas, going on with what Terry Gibbs had to say about "The Fog" in his autobiography, and up to the troubling and VERY detailed report of that 1962 Russia tour) that while I have no trouble enjoying his music for what it is I find it very, very hard to stand to see all that hero adulation that is showered upon him. Somebody who treated his fellow human beings like that through, it seems, most of his life just does not qualify for hero worshipping IMHO. A modicum of decency in everyday life is not something that hard to acquire. And if you don't have it, well, your music can still be enjoyed on its own terms, but elevating the PERSON on a pedestal? Nah! This is where I join Seeline in what he had to say about Miles Davis earlier in this thread. Of course artists are only human too, and none of us are 100% perfect, but being in the limelight (for better or worse) places some kind of obligation on you to either behave at least halfways decently or ignore everything that might be considered "minimum standards of human coexistence" and face the consequences (as quite a few rock "stars" seem all out to do these days, maybe working on the principle that bad publicity is better than no publicity). But a jerk is a jerk, artist or not.

Not a valid argument. 1) Does an importan European have to be an expatriate living in the USA to become "the most important European jazzman"? By the time he has settled down permanently in the U.S. (and in its jazz scne) he is no long a "European" jazz musician but an "American" jazzman who happens to be of European descent. Did Zawinul bring a specifically European touch to U.S. jazz throughout his works there? 2) The guys you name (with the exception of Ben Webster et al., and this was a minor occurrence overall) cover only a part of jazz that started with fusion, etc. There WAS jazz (probably MAJOR jazz, style-wise) BEFORE fusion. Can a Johny-come-lately be a MAJOR factor in the ENTIRE history of jazz? (Seems to be one of the problems with forums like this where too many just don't go back beyond Trane in their awareness of jazz) Therefore I'd also vote for Django. Next up, how about Lars Gullin? Or any of the major European Free Jazz musicians (Dauner, Brötzmann, etc.) (as an example of Europeans becoming a dominating and therefore pacesetting stylistic factor in a particular stream of jazz) (BTW; I've never dug Free Jazz but I acknowledge its importance within the history of jazz, and hence Europeans' contributions - that much for Van Basten's reminder to look beyond one's own tastes )

This was made in 1963-64. Haven't heard it but since none of the more commonly available recording guides (AMG, Music Hound, Penguin, Third Ear, etc.) mention this recording (which has bern reissued at least once by EMi on vinyl) it cannot have been THAT essential. The lineup say it was L.J. on as & voc. acc. by tp/ as/ts/bs/p/2 el-g (!!)/e-b/dm I must admit the thought of having an electric bass plodding away behind L.J. makes me wince. In John Chilton's bio L.J. is quoted as complaining bitterly about the shoddy treatment he received from Ray Charles, stating he had ben made all sorts of promises but the record just never got any plugs from Ray's company, making him feel "he must have signed me as a tax deduction or something". The book then says ""... was right in saying that there were plenty of good performances on the album, but as with other sides that Louis made in his recent past the material was not uniformly strong. ... his tone is not as quite as full as hitherto, but his fingers are as nimble as ever ... Most of the neat arrangements are by Ernie Freeman, they are contemporary examples of that period's studio music, redolent of quasi-rock drumming, electric bass figures and punchy brass interludes. ... It remains a good album but not a great one." At any rate, the Pzazz record from the late 60s definitely is to avoid.

:tup :tup As you say ... the byways off the trodden paths of "mainstream taste" provide the most enjoyable listening to us INDIVIDUALS.

Yes, sounds like a lot of money by any standards. But just for the record (i.e. vinyl ): Louis Jordan's DECCA period has been reissued countless times and you can get most of it it (close to 100%, according to the L.J. discography by Danny Garcon and Jacques Lubin) on 5 or 6 MCA LP's (including those in the "Jazz Heritage" and French "Jazz Stars" series)And then there were 2 on the Swingtime label, 2 on Charly and 3 on Jukebox Lil, and that leaves the ground well covered. Might be worht searching the secondhand bins for them. If they come up, the MCA LP's, in particular, are likely to be cheap. Also, I'd venture a guess that some of those reissues had been among the most thoughful compilations with the collector in mind, i.e. very little overlap, and the Jukebox Lil LP's, in particular, specifically sought out those tracks not included on the MCA reissues. And though I am a bit wary of that label (because, as opposed to Fresh Sound, the DO take advantage of other collector reissue labels' previous efforts), in those CD times, I'd be very surprised if no Louis Jordan Proper box exists ANYWHERE ...

Retail price directly from Bear Family (as per their current mail order catalog): 141.62 euros (+ shipping, of course).

At any rate, it looks like the label is HIS ROOSTER'S VOICE!

I think I see what you mean. Not essential for me, then ... (I've been sopiled in a BIG way by Tal Farlow )

Eh ... Durium, what's that story on your blog about a 40s Chuck Wayne album recorded on the VIK label and distributed in AFGHANISTAN??? Chuck Wayne DID record an album for VIK ("String Fever") in the 50s but Vik did not even exist yet in the 40s (Vik was one of the susidiaries that RCA launched in the 50s for certain acts - along with the X and Groove labels). So something somehow does not fit together here. "Tasty Pudding" was a reissue of a date that Chuck Wayne did for the PROGRESSIVE label (not the only Progressive masters that Savoy took over) but not likely in 1946. Don't know how Wikipedia made that up.

Ah yeah ... THAT newsreel speaker's voice is VERY well known to all Germans interested in that era ... Too bad the resolution is so poor. BTW, it is is interesting to see the differences in the reactions of the media to those concerts. While in cool Sweden the reviewer of Orkester Journalen stated flat out that Gene Krupa and his circus artistry left him cold (but admitted he made a hit with the kids in the audience), the JAZZ HOT review of the Parisian concert just drooled both about Gene and about his drum battles with J.C. Heard. And all the mags complained about the unruly behavior of many youngsters in the audience (who clearly in many cases had not come for the music in the first place - signs of times to come? ). Must have been hard for introvert artists like Lester ...

I was just referring to the fact that these JWC compilations seemed to come up fairly often on eBay.com. The vinyl record shop situation is just as bad in Germany these days as it is in Switzerland, I guess ...