Big Beat Steve

Reading this thread and bieng of roughly the same age bracket (born in 1960) as quite a few around here when it come to awareness of 70s pop music, I wonder what I am to make of this thread? Do I have to feel guilty of having been a total outsider back then because I took only a very passing interest in the pop music of the day and otherwise was in the same camp as Ted O'Reilly (the details, histories and trivia of rock music that came AFTER the end of REAL rock'n'roll music in the early 60s were of little interest to me as got into jazz early on and otherwise was/am only interested in the music of the rockabilly era, i.e. music "before my times" in every respect) or - what might be worse - do I have to feel like a total fraud today because for all I know about jazz and jazz-related music (and I'd claim it is a lot) it is boards like this that make me realize how much I still DON'T know about this music compared to others? And going by that yardstick, how many "frauds" would there be around here anyway so aren't a lot of us in good company anyway? :D BTW: WTF were the Starland/Starlight Vocal Band??

Not according to Feather's bio entry (see above). Maybe Late confused this when he mentiond the WEST Coast?

Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of 1960 sez thus: JOHN WILLIAMS, born Windsor, Vt. 1/28/29. played with Mal Hallett's last band in 1945 around Boston. To NYC 1949; Army, Jan . 51-53. Later was with Ch. Barnet, Stan Getz, Zoot Sims and other small groups around NYC. Not related to West Coast pianist John Towner Williams. Favs.: Powell, Silver, Brookmeyer. Own LP: Mercury. LPs with Nick Travis (Vict.), Brookmeyer (Storyville, WoPa), Getz (Verve), Cannonball Adderley (Merc.), Z. Sims (Argo, Dawn), Phil Woods (Pres.), J. Cleveland (Merc.).

Yeah, Mike is basically right - Crown often retitled previously issued RPM/Modern tracks when they re-reissued it on Crown. I have several Joe Houston LPs where this is the case. I think that up to a point Ace got into this too (they mention it in their liner notes to a Joe Houston CD) but I do think that in their research they go by the original session acetate info (and from the recent Ace CDs with Modern/RPM material there is lots of unissued stuff to be discovered there so this is keeping them busy). Besides, the tracks do not seem to be retitled but are just cover versions in the case of this Continental Jazz Octette and jazz is only a minor interest in the entire Ace catalog. So I guess this is why items like yours and mine (my Continental Jazz Octette LP, BTW, is Vol. 2 on Crown 5220) are not in THEIR focus. Discographer Walter Bruyninckx is pretty clueless about this too. He lists both of these Crown LPs but says the lineup is unknown and give an approximate recording date of 1954 (which I assume is just a wild guess - I figure it is a bit later but this is only based on the release number of the Crown LPs).

Have heard most of the Michel De Villiers material on those Jazz in Paris discs (and a bit more). No trailblazer maybe, but he certainly was no slouch either. Very solid, very swinging "modern mainstream" "Eurojazz" and really enjoyable if unpretentious, no-frills swinging music from that time is what you want.

Budget stuff as usual with Crown. Most of it shrouded in mystery. I have one of those Continental Jazz octette LPs too (may be the same one but I don't have my collection here at the office with me right now, of course) and this anonymous group may have been discussed here before (I dimly remember something). I agree it's not some reissue of Crown/Modern masters but some rerecording (jazzmen doing "cover versions") but I have no discographical information whatsoever. I picked up this LP for cheap a couple of years ago, found it amusing, and as it evidently was some 50s recording that was good enough for me at the time. But I'd be interested to find out more about the actual lineup too. BTW, anonymous recordings like this on budget LP's weren't that uncommon. I have a budget LP from the early to mid-50s on the GUEST STAR label which listens Sarah Vaughn and Billy Eckstine as the "featured" artists (Sassy has only one song on the LP and the Eckstine tracks are reissues of a couple of his mid-40s big band sides) and then "PLUS SELECTIONS BY THE FLETCH ANDERSON ORCHESTRA". Nice enough big band tunes with a 40s sound to fill out the album but would you believe there EVER was such a thing as a FLETCH ANDERSON orchestra? Obviously somebody tried to cash in on Fletcher Henderson's name (it's not him, that's for sure) but whoever hid behind that name hid pretty well.

Wasn't that 1948 Transcriptions disc originally issued on Hindsight? I like Hep's 1946-47 Performances, Vol. 2, which is HEP 74. Nice cross-section of his work at that time with most of the studio Evans and Mulligan material. "Anthropology," with that amazing Lee Konitz solo, is still one of my all-time favorite big band tracks. Greg Mo If the 1948 Transcriptions disc you are referring to is Hep CD 17, then the Answer is NO. I haven't been able to compare the track listings quickly but I'd say the source for this one is the previous Hep LP 17 that includes 14 tracks from 1948 and 1 from 1949. Hindsight LP 108 has tracks from 1947 (at least that's what the liner notes say).

Have earlier Mangelsdorff's (from the EP era) ever been reissued comprehensively? I mean, how can you go wrong with track titles like DIE OPA HIRCHLEITNER STORY that would leave most anybody guessing as to what it actually is?? :D

It may be a matter of course to most around here, but I guess the key to coping with books colored by (often skewed) personal opinion that are actually supposed to be REFERENCE books is to take everything with a fair grain of salt and use them as a rough guideline (with the accent on "rough"). But as you say, that requires having at least a fair degree of basic knowledge so you are not derailed too easily by someone else's possibly extremely one-sided judgment. For example, I've read several 40s books written by Hugues Panassié with GREAT amusement and interest (and actually even learned a few tidbits from them too), although in his assessments of a lot of jazz artists he was about as WAY OFF BASE as you can possibly get. BTW, your complaints about the Penguin jazz guide sometimes remind me of a few instances in the Penguin BLUES guide. There the authors clearly cannot warm up to a lot of (admittedly more craftsmanlike than artistic) 40s and early 50s R&B. But then a lot of late 20s early blues recordings (that most diehard blues fans drool about, no matter how formulaic they were) were just as repetitive when listened to in a string of recordings (i.e. in a way there were never supposed to be listened to back then when they appeared as single 78s). But overall it seems like the blues Penguin guide is a lot more objective. And yes - Tadd Dameron WAS a major figure IMHO. Wonder how "extremely slight" Cook and Morton would have rated Tiny Kahn who (again IMHO) accomplished a LOT and left quite a mark in his very brief lifetime.

So this is THAT rare?? Gotta play my copy once more Bought it on eBay some 5 or 6 years ago, I think. Cannot have cost me much more than 20 euros or so (maybe less if I bought it in a multi-record auction) because I do have my limits, though for a while I tended to shell out for non-reissued Eurojazz from that era too. If I had a turntable to CD burner interface I'd be happy to burn you a copy but right now I don't have the equipment yet. @Christiern: Re- the cover: My guess is that tenor sax man is Jack Sels.

I am not familiar with that particular 3-CD set (but it sounds interesting, how about giving full details? Track listings, label, number, etc.?); it might well be all that exists from that concert, but how much is really issued for the first time there? I have one of those 78rpms that was originally issued (on that yellow label that yells out BOP!), and as early as the 60s the Jepsen discography listed a LOT of that music that was first issued on that BOP label and later on Savoy. "Bopland" , for example, was spread in 6 parts over 3 78s and was later retitled "Byas-A-Drink". A more recent reissue of those tracks is on a Savoy twofer LP from the 80s ("The Hunt"; credited to Dexter Gordon and Wardell Gray, Savoy SJL2222). Beyond the material on that 2-LP set, there also were 3 78s worth of "Bop After Hours", according to the discographies. Wonder how much beyond that really IS all new to those 3 CD sets. If it is a substantial part I might actually go for it.

So what? It's only a rant by someone who realizes he is totally out of touch with a subculture that clearly is beond his comprehension. It seems to be dawning on the "author" of that blurb that jumping on every bandwagon labeled "progress" doesn't make you a hip person. And when his music download data have disappeared into the collective data nirvana of unreadable files the final laugh will be on us and our records and turntables. :D

Indeed! Happy listening. And after you're through with that, see if you can get hold of the "Swift Jewel Cowboys" LP on the same label!

Ha, so you made that discovery - about a quarter century after the release of that Rambler LP! Great stuff for those who are prepared to look beyond the bounds of usual 30s swing and jazz. This is ONE area where open-minded listeners will see how stylistic boundaries were defied and "crossover" music was made (in a VERY authentic way) decades before that term came into use. Enjoy!

Ouch! That's really, really bad news to European jazz fans. He was a real giant not only of Swedish jazz. Another legend gone and a link to the glory days of Swedish jazz that's been cut. I spun one of his Dragon CDs with his earlier works last night, unaware of his passing. More to follow tonight (and a good moment to reread his recollections of how he got started that have been included in the booklet to one of the Caprice CD anthology boxes). Admins, please move this thread to the Artists section. It warrants being seen much more widely!

There must be a more detailed thread about this boook around here somewhere. I remember Brownie commented on this book at length.

Well, Niko if you can't "feel" that typical 50s street flair (especially around St. German de Près) and are indifferent to 50s cars, then that's so (but that's your loss ) - OTOH rainy days aren't that appealing anyway, and not even some (then) shapely legs will offset that. As for the music, if I understood the liner notes correctly (I didn't check my discographies) there are no overlaps between those 2 CDs. The "shorter" original releases that you refer to probably are those 4-track 45 rpm EP's (EXTENDED PLAY). An extremely common release format for jazz in 50s Europe. That facsimile LP reissue by Fresh Sound is interesting. Never seen that reissue before - one of the very few that must have escaped me totally.

What Allen and Larry said. Agree too. R.I.P. BTW, wouldn't this thread have a better place in the "Artists" section??

Dead wrong IMHO! Those covers are all about a uniform "identity" of the entire series, showing Paris street scenes from the 30s to 50s (though some pics are a bit ouf of synch with the recording dates). I actually find them quite appealing (but then I'm European and am interested in other aspects of the 50s too , up to the point of buying one or two for the covers only - and then getting to appreciate the music too). I'd agree it's a matter of taste but unless you do something like the Fresh Sound reissues where you use original album cover art for the CD covers you might as well go this fairly original route adopted by "Jazz In Paris". But remember many of those Jazz In Paris CDs are made up of the contents of several 10in LPs and EPs so there would not be ONE single original cover that would apply to all the contents of the CD. But maybe you'd lilke the black Vogue reissue series of the 90s (the ones with the cardboard foldout covers) better? If you want to use the term "scam" for thoughtless, nondescript cover art, this might better be applied to certain other reissue labels (including some Stateside ones). Just my very personal opinion...

That's what I meant. At times the plot of Pt I of the series did move almost in slow motion but that's what accounted for part of its authenticity and subtlety IMO. And major historical events being the background of the overall story is quite OK - after all these events DID have a huge effect on everybody. But in what I've seen of Pts II and III of the saga, the plot unfortunately seems to have speeded up and the characters were pushed too far into the center of the action - too much so for things to be credible and authentic to the same extent that Pt I had had that "authentic" feel. I'll admit, though, that I may have missed a few finer points of the contents as I've seen only part of those follow-ups (my immediate overall impressions actually were "Not THAT setting again!" and "Is this a follow-up to cash in on the "Heimat" reputation?") As you say, probably the evolution of how TV series are produced (and speeded up) accounted for part of this impression.

It's been around as a VSOP repro reissue for quite some time. Picked it up at Mole Jazz in London sometime in the 90s (not so much for the cover which I find a bit inane - I could think of a lot of other cheesecake covers I'd rather jump on ) but for the Westcoast music. But haven't listened to it for a while. Will remedy this tonight, I think

Ha, I'd sure like to hear how a synchronized English version of "Heimat" would sound. :D Transferring that (fairly authentic) dialect of the Eifel region into another language must be quite a bit. That said, "Heimat" (the first series) was a fine and very authentic series but you really would have to want to dig into that setting to go through the whole series. When it was first broadcast on German TV back then I watched quite a bit of it with great interest (maybe spurred by the fact that part of the contents could have happened everywhere and sort of reflected what had been told by my parents' generations in my family) and certainly kept me spellbound (though I am no coutnry boy). But from a certain point of time I sort of tired of that overall setting so I did not follow it to the very end of the series. But others (not only those closer to the region where the series was set) evidently felt differently about this as it acquired a legendary reputation even while the series still went on. On the other hand, I never really got into Pts. II and III of the saga. IMHO they just tried to cram too much "topical" stuff into Pt. III, in particular, trying to grab everything that was current during the times in question and therewith stereotyping everything. Getting first the student revolt/terrorist angle and then all the 1989 fall of the Berlin wall hullaballoo worked into a series that is suposed to grab the viewer's attention just appeared like a predictable attempt at jumping onto every conceivable bandwagon that you can think of. I mean, isn't it rather cliché-laden if TV is UNABLE to come up with an interesting life story that AVOIDS the typical topics of the day? Did every German become a student revolt activist or terrorist/sympathizer at one time and did every German from every part of Germany find himself in Berlin or one or two other "hot" huge cities when the wall came down? It was a bit like depicting a typical American life as taking place either in Manhattan or in So.Cal and nothing whatsoever in between. This is where Part I excelled in showing what life (likely) was like in a small village out in the country and managing to keep things interesting depite being rather subdued in its overall imagery. Maybe I'm overcritical of that aspect but if you had seen how every German TV drama/series (or whatever) set in the not so distant past invariably involved those two historical aspects you'd tire of it too. Remember you from abroad probably saw only a small part of what has been showered on German TV viewers in that respect over the years ) Just my 2c

Bruyninckx can't seem to agree on a recording date either: He gives July, 1957, but says a Fresh Sound CD reissue gives December, 1958. The lineup is Jack Sheldon, Conte Candoli (tp), Lennie niehaus (as), Billy Root (bars), Vince De Rosa (french-h), Stu Williamson (vtb), Red Callender (tuba), Pete Jolly (p), Buddy Clark (b), Mel Lewis (d).

FWIW, Ike & Tina Turner did some stuff on Sue in the early 60s before the "River Deep Mountain High" etc. smash hits period. That alone (plus Jimmy McGriff and Ray Bryant) puts Sue firmly on the map of collectible labels.

Sounds like somebody out there is trying to milk a very, very dead cow. Or are typical completists THAT gullible?