Big Beat Steve

Like I said, Dan, this is one of those cases where these reissues just fill a gap in the history of an artist. In my case, I had all of his early R&B and was aware of what he did in the 60s so I was curious about exploring these "missing links". Actually, if other Lone Hill releases mentioned here are anything to go by then this Rusty Bryant CD might have tied in better with the Fresh Sound reissue policy.

Well said, Bluesnik! Having bought a lot of those 80s and 90s vinyl Fresh Sounds I can assure you that many of these were done VERY well, and I doubt that all of them were that shady. RCA has been mentioned as part of a legit deal but the reissues from the Epic catalog also look to me like the mother company had a say in these reissues (hence comparatively modern-looking labels), and so on ... Sure some of the covers look like they had been printed off actual album covers and not off original artwork filed somewhere in a record company's basement but so what ... We've seen a lot MUCH worse (though maybe legit) U.S. reissues such as those crappy, ring-wear prone 70s/80s U.S. Chess reissues with shoddy sleeve printing quality. Beyond those major labels, the Fresh Sound reissue policy really is a case of filling voids that nobody else cares about. He..., is there ANY U.S. jazz expert out there who'd know offhand where the rights to the STEPHENY label lie today, and do ANY U.S. labels care enough about this label to reissue its output like one of those facsimile reissue labels in the style of Fresh Sound did with the Johnnie Pate LP's (to name just ONE obscurity that would otherwise have been forgotten for good except for some greedy eBay sellers who want to make even bigger bucks with an original copy)? It might be useful to calm down this debate a little ....

Some time ago (through a pointer received on this board) I bought the Lone Hill reissue of Rusty Bryant's second and third DOT LP's: http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/...+Recordings.htm This is something that to the best of my knowledge has NOT been reissued for ages (apparently nobody cared too much about the DOT label and the stuff released on it) so it typically is one of those cases where the people from Spain step in to fill a void (so I admit I tend to be grateful for it). However, the claims in the description on this U.S. (!!) seller's site are a bit over the top: First of all, it is NOT a complete set, only a "complete early Jazz quintet" set. Rusty Bryant did an LP and several singles in a really honking R&B vein prior to those two LP's collected here (the final two tracks on the above CD are a sampling of this first phase of his career). And his blowing on THIS CD isn't that greasy, hard-boppish throughout either. Actually a lot of the standards are handled in a fairly straightforward manner. Liner notes are so-so. I like the disc but those who go all-out for his 60s soul jazz items might better want to listen in first.

and me, I don't give a bull... Yeah, just like others couldn't care less about some of those post-hard-bop-blop-blah Mosaic box sets :D No, seriously, it's nice to see not only the modernists but also the traditionalists are graced with this kind of reissues. But though my jazz tastes probably run a bit closer to this kind of music than King Ubu's I can do without that one too... That assorted Condon Commodore and CBS vinyl will do for a long time ... yet, coming to think of it, I recently got me "We Called It Music" on eBay and picked it up as my evening read yesterday so who knows ...

Re-Uptown, that's why I mentioned the case of the Bird/Diz 1945 Town Hall release above. Ripping off more or less current releases is one thing, yet filling a TOTAL void is a slightly different affair. On a side note: Are ALL Japanese reissues always 100% legit?

I am not condoning anything. I am in agreement with practices where original ARTISTS THEMSELVES are compensated and I wouldn't condone ripoffs of other current or recent reissues that undermine the market of those who took the pains to reissue something in the first place. But if NOTHING AT ALL that you might call "legit" happens reissue-wise in that particular field for ages ... And many of those reissues that take advantage of a law (like it or not) are putting artists back on the map with collectors who otherwise probably would be largely unaware of them. This might prompt beneficial interest in those artists in other respects. If those FS releases actually were that illegal, well ... Makes me wonder anyhow why none of the majors (such as the present owners of Decca) bothered one bit. Well, maybe I'll take one of those early F.S. Imperial reissues by Charlie Mariano whenever he gives a concert again to try and get it autographed; wonder if he will be trying to rip my head off ... On the other hand, I have yet to see proof of the fact that the majors (that hold the rights) are correcting royalty situations throughout they handled unfairly in the past. But yes, in a pinch it might boil down to a situation that says "If the RECORDING artists are not going to profit from this then the companies that cheated them in the first place are definitely not ging to benefit either." I understand your argument about grandchildren, etc. but remember that a LOT of property rights, patents, etc. fall into the public domain after a specified span of time, and this is known to all those concerned from the outset. If you consider the 50-year limit that unethical you might as well raise concerns about the U.S. 70-year limit and have this go on forever. I remember another debate (on the AAJ forum) on this subject of the 50 vs 70-year limit where somebody (from the U.S., I think) said this royalty rule certainly never was intended to avoid countless subsequent heirs' generations from having to stand on their own feet. As for the Route 66 label, even in the era before everything went digital there was such a thing as dubbing from 78s AND remastering (at least that's what the record sleeves said). And I remember people referring to this label as being "bootleg to the detriment of the companies but to the BENEFIT of the ARTISTS".

More on Jack McVea here: http://www.answers.com/topic/jack-mcvea http://www.jazzhouse.org/gone/lastpost2.php3?edit=979815042 As for the rest, more tonight (have to listen to the record again first).

Depends on price and condition. TOPS probably didn't have the greatest vinyl in the world. I LIKE that music! Good, freewheeling blowing ... And yes, it IS a live recording. I'll give it a listen tonight and tell you then ... can't really recall how good/bad the fidelity is...

I fully agree with what Felser and Morganized just said. Too much of what's been said against Lone Hill and Fresh Sound does not give the whole picture, and there is nothing wrong with minor labels, and the 50-year copyright limit laws make this legal in a good deal of the world where the record buyers for this kind of music are. No point in debating this ... I can understand those who bemoan that labels such as Lone Hill that seem to rip off other recent releases. I recently checked out the Parker/Gillespie Town Hall concert CD on Uptown and was slightly surprised to see that the material (although a fairly recent issue) already seems to crop up on two other (European?) labels. That said, as a customer (not a record reseller) I'd certainly not go for a Lone Hilll release if a better produced and/or more complete release of the same material is available elsewhere on CD - for the simple reason that in many cases (at least over here in Europe) the price difference between Lone Hill and what some here call more "legit" (whatever that may mean in view of the 50-year copyright laws in Europe that are just that - laws and therefore perfectly LEGAL, like it or not!) isn't that big! Overall I haven't seen too many of the Lone Hill releases yet though I will always be grateful to Fresh Sound and similar repro reissue labels that reissued a HUGE amount of cool 50s jazz LP's back in the VINYL days that NOBODY, but really NOBODY (least of all in the USA where for ages they have been as shortsighted as they come in their reissue policies) ever cared about and that NOBODY would EVER have reissued anywhere else on LP! And I really cannot see that all of this was illegal because at that time (the 80s) the 50-year limit had not been reached AND Fresh Sound usually put their full address on the sleeves, making them easy to track down. Besides, Jordi Pujol isn't exactly an unknown quantity (incuding in political circles). As for the "Japanese" reissue programs, come on now! Jap reissues may be halfway affordable in the States but over here in Europe whenever any reissue says "Japan", the prices go through the roof and you are being ripped off in a big way by almost anybody who resells these! Not really very affordable in the long run ... A final word on royalties in conjunction with the 50-year limit (and this also applies to the reply by David Weiss above): Like it's been said above, in many cases the original artists are long dead, and it is a question of ethics indeed whether their material is to benefit the heirs of their heirs (!) forever, i.e the generation AFTER their children. Besides, many of those 50+ year-old reissues date back even further and were made at a time (especially in the 78 rpm era or in the R&B field) when the artists certainly never received ANY royalties from their work as they had been pressed into signing recordings contracts that netted them a flat fee for a session only. Now do you really think present-day "legit" owners of those labels would now all of a sudden go about crying out loud about the shadiness for their predecessors and go on to track down the heirs of the artists and ruefully pay them royalties that may have been their due for decades? Do you really think that this would be so in each and EVERY case where it might be called for? Or would they just say "A contract is a contract" forever? And since ethics is mentioned so often here, how about the ethical side of buying LEGIT reissues of Count Basie's late 30s Decca material, for example? As you all know Decca's Dave Kapp (or whoever of his underlings did the negotiations) managed to screw him in a big way by getting Basie to sign a contract for recording 24 sides (including MANY of his later classics!) for a flat fee of §750. Even John Hammond managed to get only marginal improvements on this! Is it ethical to make the heirs and successors of Dave Kapp's doings benefit from this? Does anybody really have to feel THAT guilty about buying non-legit releases under THESE cicrumstances? The same goes for the practices of other label owners, too, such as Herman Lubinsky at Savoy or the Bihari at Modern/RPM. Also, I'd really like to see what "legit" U.S. companies have been doing in this respect in the PAST during the entire period when reissues started hitting the market. Starting in the late 70s and all through the 80s, Jonas Bernholm from Sweden reissued a HUGE amount of fantastic R&B on his Route 66 label as well as its subsidiaries (Juke Box Lil, Mr R&B, Saxophonograph, etc.). He made a point of paying the artists royalties and the royalty fees paid to the RECORDING artists (NOT the original labels!) were clearly indicated on each release. From a source close to him at the time I understand he usually went so far as to ADVANCE the royalties for a production run of 2000 LP's to the original artists at the time of release, and it is said that this came as a god-send to many artists featured on these LP's such as Amos Milburn who was severely ill at the time. Again, you U.S. forumists who are so concerned about legit-only releases - my question is: What did U.S. companies do at that time? The Kent label being non-shady? Aw c'mon! In short, the ethics issue of royalties might often backfire if you look closer at what happened when the recordings were made. Just my 2c

I think I have the U.K. Vogue pressing of this 10" LP (will look it up tonight when I get home from work), and it can be found in the discographies. I guess it was a recording from one of the Gene Norman Just Jazz concerts. This has been reissued in the "Jazz Off The Air" LP series on the Spotlite label (was Vol. 2, I think).

Well, the books I mentioned were ENGLISH-Language editions! This is why I did not even mention Bill Wyman's Blues history book that's been on sale there recently (I'd have preferred the English version too but this one isn't that bad as a translation). Obviously I am thinking of "art" books only here because for the most part this is where the JAZZ literature that we might be thinking of here first is usually found (with a few notable exceptions such as Boris Vian's collected writings on jazz that 2001 carried in its German translation a couple of years ago). As for general literature and fiction books, I don't think there is a shortage of sources for finding almost anything at cut prices today in these times of the internet, and 2001 can't have 'em all if they want to retain their special image.

German books only ? NAH! The B.B. King book they currently have on offer is in English - and it's a beaut! And late last year they had the BEBOP volume of the "Third Ear" record guide at a giveaway price. (Yeah I know - the Scott Yanow detractors might well lurk just around the corner but I like it anway - wish I had be able to get that anywhere near that price when I bought my copy 5 or 6 years ago) In 2005 they had William Gottlieb's jazz picture book, and there's LOTS more in English on their book tables, both related to our music and to lots of other subjects!

Here in Holland the early titles - I think - were only available as imports (though on a very low scale). I have never seen any European pressings, except for some of the later titles (7400+) on the German Funckler label (nice laminated jackets and solid pressings). Some of the Swingville/Moodsville/Bluesville titles which were sold here had European jackets (Interdisc) but contained original pressings. Barclay issued PR in France, up to about 7200, then I think Voix de son Maitre . Bellaphon, then Saba in Germany. Not nearly so clear about the periods, however. Some Fontanas from MV etc, also. MG Totally correct about Bellaphon for Germany, MG. And then there were Prestige records pressed and distributed (not only in Scandinavia) by METRONOME.

Then take it easy, take a rest and let's both cut out of this and let others come up with more suggestions for further listening. Here's to your speedy recovery

Hey, what've you been smoking? :D

A lot of them must have been different. I have a 60s U.K. release of "Saxophone Colossus" on the Stateside label. Basically different artwork too ...

If you don't mind getting duplications that's fine. And 78s (or 50s originals) are something else, of course. I don't mind my Kenton 78s also appearing on my Kenton reissue vinyl (some 30 or 40 LP's or so) either. But getting more or less the same material over again from one CD reissue to the next and ending up with lots of overlap? I dunno ... BTW, a question to those in the know: Did Fresh Sound ever transfer their reissues of 50s Shorty Rogers LP's to their CD catalog? Take care

Nothing wrong with that, Chewy. Compilations are Ok if you do not want to go much further with any particular artist. I just wanted to mention the duplications. And it's a pity they don't include the "Shorts Courts the Count" stuff.

Ha! Looks like this one (on the Giant Steps Records label, right?) is one of those re-compilations that so many seem to complain about here. It seems to be available with the same contents from another (non-RCA) label: http://www.alphamusic.de/1957295.html This more or less duplicates the RCA Short Stops CD (NOT the 2-LP set) and should be nice for a first (!) listening to Shorty but on the other hand, two thirds of the first CD are rather pointless if you ever want to get any deeply into Herman, Kenton or Rumsey because then you are bound to accumulate all of these tracks elsewhere. And remember - among Shorty Rogers' leader recordings it only includes a sampling of his Capitol and RCA stuff but none of his Contemporary or Atlantic ("Martians") material. So it all depends on whether you are content with getting a representative compilation or if you want to get any deeper into Shorty's recordings (because if you want to you will find all of this over again on other releases).

That just about sums it up - in a positive way, I'd say. What's wrong with combining these musical elements? That "Rat Pack" music (or "lounge" music as others might call it) never appealed too much to me, for example, but in this package it adds a new twist to contemporary swing-based music. Formerly combinations like this would have been called "crossover", and what used to be "authentic" hard bop like they used to play in the late 50s/early 60s became "post-bop" in the process or whatever so purists have nothing to complain about. Post-bop isn't that much closer to hard bop than some (!) neo-swing is to mainstream swing. Cross-breedings like this have always existed so don't sneer at it. As for the music, I never really went for Big Bad Voodoo Daddy that much when that Neo-Swing thing was happening in the 90s (if the CD's I've heard ae anything to go by then bands like Indigo Swing, the New Morty Show, The Royal Crown Revue or Big Time Operator just sounded a lot more interesting to me - not to mention Eddie Reed or Bill Elliott) but they did contribute to making non-jazz people aware of Swing as a musical style worth exploring. And fad or not - all these bands did contribute to putting "the real thing", i.e. 30s and 40s swing, back into a lot of listener's ears, and at least over here in Europe they have turned on quite a few listeners to authentic swing and, hence, to jazz, and have made a few new addicts. That's more than can be said of certain "pure" avantgarde jazz forms so what more can you expect under these circumstances?

Listen to BOTH but be careful in your decisions. Rogers & Pepper at the Lighthouse is GREAT, as are the "Martians" albums on Atlantic. And "Short Stops" would also be great as an INTRODUCTION to Shorty's RCA recordings but MAKE SURE the CD you have been suggested actually includes ALL that is on the "Short Stops" VINYL on RCA. Originally this was a TWO-LP set and also included the entire "Shorty Courts the Count" LP (plus other material such as the "Wild One" soundtrack), and when CD's came along U.S. record companies in particular were known to rehash previously issued vinyl under the same title in rather a slapdash manner on CD to cash in on the growing CD market but butchered the contents in the process, i.e. a couple of tracks are likely to have been eliminated just to make everything fit on one CD. This can be VERY annoying when you want to make additional purchases as you will end up with LOTs of duplicate tracks. So the LP might well be the better buy. There are other nice 50s releases on the RCA and Contemporary labels that are worth getting. Speaking of the "Wild One" soundtrack, don't let yourself get confused by the name Leith Stevens mentioned above. There was a totally different LP out by the "Leith Stevens All Stars" that included the soundtrack items plus other "related" tracks to make up one complet 12in LP. Nice as well (but hard to get) but this is NOT the Shorty Rogers music. So be sure which one you get.

Good idea ... If I have the time I'll either listen to the soundtrack or get out the VHS cassette tonight ... Calloway, Waller and the "Tramp band" are just great! (and the "rest" ain't bad either)

Or we might all have to switch EUROPEAN jazz for good. Take Caprice or Dragon for Swedish jazz, Riviera for reissues of Italian jazz, and Czech jazz has quite a few reissues going too, and there are others elsewhere, etc. etc. And what is more - if European collector labels just were to focus on reissuing EUROPEAN jazz then none of the Americans who seem so terribly concerned about the 50-year limit of the Public Domain issue (yet buy the discs) won't have to complain anymore at all. No, seriously - and while I won't want to start the P.D. debate over again (it's all been said), aren't the European laws just that - laws? And whatever is done in accordance with (!) those laws is therefore perfectly legal, and we Europeans have no need to come up with excuses. And besides, how many U.S. jazz records would NEVER EVER have been reissued anywhere if no Europeans had ever taken the initiative? I've said it before and am going to say it again: Somehow I wonder how labels such as Document or Ace or Krazy Kat manage to make nicely done CD reissues happen that are produced and remastered (to the extent possible) anew and are not just recyclates of remastered tracks from other CD's released shortly before (the main argument brought up against companies such as Proper and Membran as it discourages legit sources from producing NEW reissues for fear that they will be cannibalised by those cheapo labels immediately after their release). And where would all those recordings on all those independent labels end up if nobody took care of them? The big conglomerates couldn't care less anyway ...

Not the SWEDES FROM JAZZVILLE LP on EPIC (Columbia subsidiary), I suppose?

And same here! Till later Steve