Big Beat Steve

I bought a few LPs from the "Giants of Jazz" label in the 80s (they were cheap and all over the place in the special price bins in the record shops for quite a long time here), usually if they had some track(s) that were impossible to find on other reissues at the time. one I remember was a Coleman Hawkins compilation that was the first one I ever saw that had his "Picasso" solo recording. I got the "The Jazz Scene" album more than 15 years ago but still have that LP for this particular tune (I have all the others from the GOJ LP on other reissues) as its fidelity (not bad to start with) is a bit better than the VG+ "Jazz Scene" original. But I unloaded most of the other GOJs once I had all the material on other, more thoughtfully compiled LPs. I never got into Giants of Jazz CDs but about 2 years ago I picked up the Wardell Gray and Fats Navarro CDs from that label at 1 euro each at a clearout sale at a local used record store. Of course I had all the tracks on these CDs on "name" reissues but they were intended for my car CD player anyway and get lots of spins there. While we are busy throwing more names into the ring, here is one PD label I do like: FANTASTIC VOYAGE from Britain. As for the target markets of their reissue program, I'd rank them somewhere between/among Jasmine, JSP and Vocalion. I became aware of them a couple of years ago when for some reason I did an online search of Ina Ray Hutton, and lo and behold - they had a comprehensive 3-CD set of her orchestra . Bought at once, and very pleased. Decent sound, very nice presentation and artwork (by someone who has a feel for that period), and if a PD label goes all the way to do something on Ina Ray Hutton (of all bandleaders) it cannot be a ripoff-and-run affair. There'd be far, far better-selling targets ... During the time thereafter I picked up a few of their other artist and theme compilations (some Jazz Noire and, above all, several of their Jump Blues "the Jamaican Sound System way" series). The artist 3-CD sets featuring Maxwell Davis and King Curtis do fill gaps in the reissue world so it seems they do some decent research mindful of collectors and do not just rehash the usual stuff easily or just recently available elsewhere. The "Jamaican Sound System Classics" are not likely to have lots of material that's new to to diehard R&B collectors, but I picked them up anway as I find them very well programmed and convenient to have a number of perennial connoisseur favorites in one place, particularly as they could/can be found at very good prices. And the packaging, presentation, booklets, notes etc. are well-done too. Scene experts such as Dave Penny (the main liner note man) and Dan Kochakian were involved in the compilation and discographical work. Not the worst references ... As for their remastering, one Paul Jackson is credited in the "Jamaican" series and the Maxwell Davis set has one note proclaiming "Fantastic Voyage believes in moderation in the application of noise reduction. We hope you will agree that the quality of MD's solo on Junp Safari more than compensates for the surface noise." Whatever that tells about their approach ...

Just took the plunge and ordered a copy of The High Fidelity Art of Jim Flora (the third of the Flora books done by collator Irvin Chusid) online. I also am on the lookout for a decently priced copy of The Mischievous Art of Jim Flora (of which i became aware only very recently too) but I am a bit wary about the references of an online seller of the the most affordable one found so far. I'll keep searching ...

Yes it's him - acording to the liner notes.

Yes, it's a pity that Chronological Classics did not last longer. Although, on the other hand they did make you realize that in the end you do NOT always need to be a completist even with some of those artists that really ranked high on your favorite list and where you had been wondering about the tracks overlooked on other, earlier reissues and were sort of hoping for CC to come to the rescue. Sometimes the experience was a mixed bag ...

I guess your stance is fairly common among other forumists too, as past discussions have shown. But unfortunately those past discussions have also shown that some forumists tend to rage and rant in every way whenever PD releases on Spanish labels (for example) come up. And it is not that hard to fathom why ... They seem to take offense when PD releases are done of artists oh so dear to their hearts in those fields of jazz they prefer (hard bop and onwards) and question the legitimacy of those releases and of the way they make use of European P.D. laws whereas they are rather more tolerant when it is about "introductory" box sets on bebop and possibly even earlier styles of jazz that are not quite as much of a key focus to them and where box sets such as these enable them to cover their essentials in one (budget-priced) swoop. I call this "double standards", sorry to say ... Not least of all because, like I said, I do have my doubts that Proper in each and every case starts from scratch in their compilations and uses of source material. Another example that comes to mind in that respect is that their accordeon jazz box set has a surprising number of overlaps with a box set done by Fremeaux some 20 years ago. And as it happened this one also extensively featured 50s artists that had been graced with reissues elsewhere not that long before (Mat Mathews IIIRC) whereas I cannot find any trace of other accordeonists who to my knowledge have not been reissued (Johnny Hamlin, to name just one example) but would have expanded the coverage of such a "themed" compilation. I'd have figured a thoughtfully compiled reissue on a specific field also covered by a fellow label would proceed in the interest of the customer and try to fill the gaps left by that other (except for a sampling of total essentials, possibly) and cover their OWN ground. Not all that much here, though. So much for "curating" ...

Bruyninckx just lists Bacsik on guitar, nobody else.

The discogs link I provided you with tells it all.

Your LP is the US release of the Fontana LP discussed earlier in this thread. See here: https://www.discogs.com/Elek-Bacsik-Jazz-Guitarist-Elek-Bacsik/release/10985479

Yes, I thought about Proper too when i gave my impressions above. I have seen a few discussions here in the past where it really seemed to me like they seem to be held in high esteem by some forumists who sneer at lots of other PD labels (starting with Fresh Sound) but are all for picking up Proper box sets of those artists who they'd like to familiarize themselves with but do not want to go all out and buy the reissues piecemeal in more comprehensive fashion elsewhere, e.g. those who are primarily into hard bop (and subsequent styles) but would like to get a smattering of bebop too but don't care to dig to the same depth there. A bit of double standards but oh well ... I have a few Proper sets and while I find them OK soundwise I do have my doubts about whether they actually do their own remastering etc. I wonder if the Proper people who did the Bob Wills set did NOT take a "proper" look at the Bear Family set and in the same manner I wonder whether the Milton Brown box set done by the Texas Rose label did NOT serve as a very, very direct inspiration for the Proper box set. Also, I find the artist listings in their "themed" box sets (e.g. the "Hittin' on All Six" guitar set) just crappy. The track listing on the back of the box set and on the website does not give the name of the band leader under whose name the tune actually was issued but the name of the featured guitarist. So you often will be unable to know exactly which is which (as it is not unknown for artist to record one and the same tune in several settings) unless you are a walking discography. You'd only find the accurate details inside the booklet AFTER you have bought the (sealed) set. Not the way to do it IMO ...

When I first saw this thread I was wondering long and hard if Red Rodney was "early" enough (even from today's vantage point).

Avid Entertainment - (P) and (C) 2017 Avid Ltd. Compiler: Colin Davey, Remasteirng: Nick Dellow, plus the standard wording of "All rights of the producer and owner of the recorded works reserved" No mention of RCA.

I still feel these are two totally different kettles of fish - if only because the way you source your material means you follow a different approach. This skews the discussion.

I have no way of knowing for sure but my guess is that such a (P.D.) label did use vinyls for the transfers (how would they haved had access to master tapes?) but that they also did some relatively thoughtful remastering on it.

Ace is NOT a "public domain" label, neither is Bear Family. They DO license stuff and Ace, in particular, has ACQUIRED entire label files and archives lock stock and barrel (e.g. the Modern/RPM catalog) and has gone where no others have bothered to tread. If a discussion such as this was to evolve along halfway serious lines this distinction ought to be respected and adhered to. Just because a label is European does not mean it is "Public Domain". And "Public Domain" by European laws and standards is not intrinsically bad. As for the sound harshness and loudness issue, I have a feeling this is a problem even with totally "legitimate" reissues these days. Seems like many reissue companies are bowing too rapdily to what they perceive to be "today's" listeners' "habits" and expectancies. I seem to remember more than one discussion about some Blue Note RVG rmeasterings under that angle too. FWIW, I for one am largely satisfied with Fresh Sound (disregarding for now that they did/do have licensing deals for part of their reissues too) and their offshoots such as Blue Moon, partly because they too go where others never bothered to go (because visibly there was not enough money in those areas for them). Generally I find their sound OK, quite acceptable, whatever .... On a different aspect, I have come to be fairly dissatisfied with the "2 LPs on one CD" reissue/pairing policy of Fresh Sound because they very often pair an easily available item with a really obscure item or one that they had reissued earlier with such an obscure one that would be new to the reissue market. So those who've been around a fairly long time and bought their stuff earlier will often be licked. But I have reached the point where I do not really get too worked up about this anymore. You can't have'em all ... (To put my approach to these PD labels in perspective, when I pay what would be the "full price" it is vinyl I prefer. If I cannot get the vinyl at an affordable price (which these days is often the case, unfortunately) I am much more wary to pay top money for CDs with stuff that is just being reissued in an x-th iteration) I had no qualms about picking up a scant few items on LoneHillJazz either - including for the reason of them covering fields nobody else did (obscure Japanese reissues maybe available on the worldwide market for something like 12 minutes and 43 seconds before going OOP don't count ) As for Real Gone Jazz (the "Classic Albums" 4-CD sets, I've picked up a few of these and can live quite well with the sound too for what they are and how they are priced. I tend to see them as convenience packages and introductory starter sets (this is how I approached some Jimmy Smith and Shirley Scott sets) or gap fillers for items otherwise hard to come by, and they do serve their purpose well in that field. For example, I picked up the Tal Farlow package because though I have spent a fair bit of dough on picking up his individual albums (including some originals and some Japanese reissues) there were three in the field that just eluded me at the prices I was willing to shell out. So given the price of the 4-CD set, this package was well worth picking up even for only 3 LP's worth of ALL-new stuff. When I had a fit of stocking up on Soul Jazz 2 years ago I got myself not only a Real Gone Jazz set on Gene Ammons but also his "Prestige Collection 1960-1962" 4-CD set on a label called "Enlightenment" (his vinyls had largely disappeared from the usual outlets here for a long time). I remember I was a bit underwhelmed by the sound but I will have to do a sort of listening comparison between both (they duplicate one LP) and the very few OJC vinyl reissues I have. JSP im my opinion is a can of worms. I do not have enough of them across the ENTIRE spectrum to judge fairly, but I have several of really early cajun/hillbilly and blues sets with recordings from the 20s that, while I am very tolerant of background noise of reissued 78s really had me wondering "Did all the Paramounts really sound THAT bad across the board?", for example. I can live with it and if in doubt I prefer the noise even of scruffy originals instead of deadened doctorings that lack the high and low ends and just sound flat, but yet I am wondering if any remastering at all was done to these reissues ... The 50s R&B sets I have are OK soundwise, compared to what else is out there in various formats and labels. OTOH the Chet Atkins "Early Years" box (compiled with the assistance of Joe Bussard) sounds eerily clean and "cleaned up" to me. As for Jasmine, those I have are mostly older CDs with reissues of British jazz from the 50s and I wonder if these really all are P.D. or if some reissue licensing deal (e.g. with the successors of the Tempo label) did go into it.

You're all way too fast for me again. TTK, about your ealier question about vinyl sources of the AVID CD, honestly, I am not going to make a definite statement, just try a subjective impression. As I don't have any other versions of the "Adventures in Time" I canot really judge know what exactly they are supposed to sound like in detail, and as the "tonal colors" are all rather different from one track to another it is hard to make sound comparisons as the tunes follow each other. So I did as you suggested and took what must have been the final track on side 1 of the "New directions In Muscic" 10-incher: "Rain" (as it happens) and tried some listening comparison with my vinyl copy of "Inside Sauter-Finegan Revisited" which a reissued many tracks from that 10". My LP is very clean and plays well, but apart from the fact that here (as with many CD reissues) the overall volume of the CD is up compared to LPs and though I'd be quite happy with the LP as it is if I had never happened to buy the CD, I do find the sound of that track on the Avid CD to be brighter and clearer. Hard to describe it in terms that will satisfy the serious musicologists and sound technicians, but the instruments sound more "separate" and more distinctive (you can pick out the brushwork of the drummer more clearly as I sense it, for example), yet they still are "together". The general impression of other tracks goes into the same direction. Whatever it was the remastering engineer did (one Nick Dellow - familiar to anyone?), the results are quite palatable to me. So no complaints from me about this Avid reissue. Re - "Under Analysis", yes of course the LP exists , and IMHO your assessment nails it, TTK (even to me who may be more familiar with earlier big band versions of the standards). Compared to other (earlier) S-F LPs it is a more straightforward version of their "progressive" approach to big band orchestration and charts swinging in a more direct way. Something that even somebody not on an all-out progressive trip shold find fairly accessible (unless, of course, he is dead bent on sticking with typical late 30s "big band era" sounds) The Liebermann Concerto is on the Avid reissue too, BTW, but I have not yet listened to it closer. I'll get around to "Adventures in Time" eventually too but to me it is challenging. It runs a very, very wide gamut - from the cartoon score-ish "The Jukes Family Take a Holiday" (I can very well imagine this as the background music to an animated plot based on the JIm Flora covers of "Sons of Sauter-Finegan" and Nick Travis' "The Panic is On" ) via the dark and decidedly odd rendition of the "The Minute" poem to a background of various percussion sounds (Salvador Dalì's melting clocks set to music? or still more analogies that would be too long go into here) to the lighter-hearted uptempo "Swingcussion" that moves along a bit like what the xylophone-based Red Norvo orchestra of the 30s might have sounded like if he had just kept his early orchestra going and evolving into the 50s without moving his style towards a chamber music setting the way he did from the mid-40s onwards.

Down Beat were sort of underwhelmed. Unable to express the ideas floating in his head and painfully squealing because he was aware of what he wanted to express but couldn't ... Or so they thought ... Just out of curiosity .... Was there more than one Milcho Leviev or a succession/family of musicians by the same name? Unless my memory is failing me really, really badly, I do seem to remember that name from some Down Beats from the 50s (and/or Schwann-like record release listings), but in an orchestral MOR pop/light classics context. Could this possibly be the same one?

But proof too that they were not ABOVE playing such music.

Before anyone else pulls it up:

FWIW, the Mercury LP with the soundtrack of Rock All Night was reissued in the late 80s with the original cover and Mercury label number (MG 20293). I have a hunch this was NOT a reissue done by Mercury (they would not have kept all the original details and catalog no. but mentioned the then current "major" affiliation of the label instead etc.). But whoever reissued this went to great lengths in duplicating the original LP (including the label with the Mercury head and the MG catalog number repated in the dead wax), except the paper of the sleeve. My guess it came from the Netherlands (there were a fair number of compilation or repro reissues of 50s records - basically bootlegs, in the end - from that country that hit the record stalls on the Rockin' scene circuit at that time).

You mean where we approach the center of the disc in the case of the original vinyl, then? I will try to listen closer the next time I spin this.

Honestly - search me. This is something that I can't tell. See my above disclaimer. How would YOU tell on a technical level? (Discounting shoddy bootlegs where you can hear the needle being dragged off the platter at the end of the tune but before the very last fade-out tone has faded out ... - or musings on who may or could possibly have had access to source or master tapes at all)

Centigrades or Fahrenheit?

I do not have a high-end audio setup but I am pleasantly surprised. Last Sunday I spun my original stereo copy of the "Inside Sauter-Finegan Revisited" LP which reissues part of the first S-F 10" LP and did not find the sound bad at all to start with (the stereo doesn't detract) and then, last night, listened to the same tracks (from that first 10") on the CD and found the sound nicely full and bright. They claim on the CD the tracks have been remastered and give a name (not one I am familiar with and I am not at home but in the office right now so cannot check) so my impression is they clearly did some work on these tracks. (Disclaimer : This is just some subjective impression - this is the first Avid CD I ever bought, I am no extreme sound frequency analytics geek and do not spend hours and hours comparing this or that reissue, repressing or remastering of one and the same track for some finicky details but rely on my general listening impressions for what I personally want to get out of the music overall )

Received my copy of the AVID CD containing the Sons, Adventure in Time, Goodman/Miller (and their first 10") albums last night. The Adventure in Time album is heavy stuff (for my listening habits), though, that I need to take (and take in) piecemeal. So please bear with me and be patient ... It's all about percussion, reminding me of the Persuasive Percussion and Provicative Percussion albums in places, but more ambitious still ... As for the Sons of S-F, a first listening-in confirms what Larry Kart said above, though I don't find it quite that "marginally S-F" only. It all depends which part of the recorded spectrum of S-F charts you approach this from.

Just getting into the details of this one now ... This actually is a reissue of their first 10" album of 1953 (RCA LPM-3115) and also has a few tracks from "The Sound of Sauter-Finegan". The only new track seems to be "Exactly Like You", a "leftover" from one of the sessions that yielded the "Concert Jazz" album. Some of the contents of this will crop up again on "Inside Sauter-Finegan Revisited" (RCA LPM/LSP 2473). I am still trying to figure out your angle as I do not seem to be able to grasp it all yet. But that moment will come ... One remark anyway about your review of "Stop! Sit Down! Relax! Think!" My reaction to listening to this one right now (for the very first time for ages) was totally different. It certainly is no Glenn Miller novelty (unless you lump in any danceable white big band swing under "Glenn Miller"). Miller may have been there if he had been around after 1944 and active in the 50s, but do we know? And vocal novelties IMO start a bit farther down the line. To me it is a surprisingly nice example of danceable swing of some more "progressive" (and actually fairly space-agey IMO) 50s style. I'd love to see a few couples of swing-loving dancers do a relaxed, easy going jive or lindy hop to this one but am afraid not many would be hip enough, at least in those circles I am familiar with. Just like "The Honey Jump" (from the "Sound of S-F" album that you unloaded) is an entertaining and danceable period piece even to those who are familiar with other versions of that time (and don't take their music not all that stylistically seriously), starting with Oscar McLollie's original for Modern or the cover version (by one totally unknown called Jody Webb & His Round Up Boys) for the hillbilly market on the Modern subsidiary Flair. I'd rate it as a sort of sauterfineganish equivalent of the Shorty Rogers gang (under the Boots Brown moniker) or the Lighthouse men (on "Big Boy" etc.) having a not quite that serious go at R&B. Both something for hip enough space-agey bachelors to dig if they for once want to get out of their lounge chair and out on the dance floor to move a leg to something more sophisticated and less raucous than real R&B or the burgeoning rock'n'roll sounds of the day. As you can see there is more than one way to approach some of this music even from the points of reference of the times.