Big Beat Steve

Actually - no, I think it WOULD be quite possible. I am not even sure you need to go back to extended coverage of the deeper details of minstrel music or to the prehistory of blues, for example, but if you do look closer at the "outliers" of jazz, blues, country, etc. from, say, the 20s onwards, you'd be able to see a lot of details that really point at "things to come". There are many examples of cross-pollination between the genres and of uncommonly uninhibited and unconventional artists (both black and white) who did in those early years what the more sedate "mainstream" set still found so shocking in 1954. It's a highly interesting field to explore so this is why I was asking about this book. P.S. Just as a hint at the direction research might take and referring to the quote you included in your above post, have you read "What Was The First Rock'n'Roll Record?" by Jim Dawson and Steve Propes? Written a bit tongue-in-cheek and actually mostly "food for thought" for further individual explorations starting from each recording discussed there, but one of the earliest recordings they list as candidates is in fact "Blues" feat. Illinois Jacquet from the 1944 JATP concert.

Which invariably inflated the price. Thanks for your input, both of you. I was a bit wary of whether this would add anything new but I think I'll give it a pass. The minstrel angle that seems to be dear to the author might have been interesting but maybe reading the liner booklet to this or that CD reissue from the Old Hat label will provide the key info anyway - in an in-depth way. And I do think I am rather familiar with a lot of the other angles of the pre-1954 "prehistory" of rock'n'roll anyway so won't gain many substantially new insights there. Particularly if it seems like the ONE book that pulls ALL the strings together still remains to be written. .

Now that we have settled that it's Birks and not Birk - can anybody tell me who Herk was??

Did I miss something somewhere? The track listing that I downloaded starts with the Nov. 8, 1943 session.

An interesting set. I am a big Woody Herman fan but on looking closer i am rather unsure about it. As I see it, this begins with the Deccas AFTER the end of the recording ban, and I guess I have all the Deccas from that period on other reissues. As for the "rest", I once picked up a few stray LPs of the Woody Herman in Disco Order" LP series on Ajax (@gmonahan - now THIS is where the sound can get bad! ) and am rather underwhelmed by many of the vocals that fill the gaps beyond the usual reissue fare. What I have on previous reissues from his Mars and MGM period is more spotty but still I wonder how much of the "remainders" or "new" tracks were first of all geared at those who like romantic vocals. I downloaded the track listing and will compare in due course.

Of course I did not read every feature in detail but just glossed over very many of them. But I did take note of the subjects covered (if only to check what to copy for my own reference and what to let pass ).

I wasn't a regular reader of JP either but bought an almost complete collection of JP from mid-1953 to 1986 or 87 in 2005 or so. I only kept the years up to 1966 and sold the later years (the last ones went at a fleamarket about a year ago) but before I packed away those available for sale I went through all of them and and made and kept photocopies of those features, stories and record reviews that were of lasting interest to me. As you can imagine this was an intense reading crash course and you got a pretty good impression of the mag as a whole because you did all your reading during a reatively short span of time.

I don't have my Jazz Podium mags from that period anymore but the way I remember the general line of the mag in those years it seemed to me that they were rather forward-minded and gave a lot of coverage to free and avantgarde and experimental jazz and jazz rock and whatnot ... Particularly to upcoming German or European artists of the day. That may have shifted somewhat through the years (yes I remember they did a feature story on Scott Hamilton too, FWIW) but Jazz Podium of the 70s and 80s did not strike me as a very traditionalist paper. As for the Dizzy Gillespie review, maybe they just found those attempts at modernization did not suit him, in particular.

So "Birks Works" actually means "Birks at work" - right?

Actually I did not know for sure. Public Domain labels often have quite generic names that don't say much, and in most (though not all) cases the actual label name figures exactly there on the Amazon site.. So I'l admit whatever is written there is not totally reliable but your guess is as good as mine. Discogs did not yield anything (though if that record actually dates from 2004 - as the Amazon description says - it ought to have shown up in secondhand circles by now). But again - whatever it is - I'd not assume it is anything but a Public Domain reissue.

If you check the item description further down on that Amazon page you see the label name GENERAL IMPORT. Never heard of ...

Never heard of THAT reissue label, though ...

There is a THIRD one IMO. Stupid selection of the photographs on the cover or back cover that are totally out of sync with the musical contents, and even more so, are horrendous to watch - such as a LOT of garish 70s garb. I can understand that the Route 66 label may have been at a loss of finding decent, usable early 50s photographs of their featured artists when they did their early post-war R&B reissues (witness the awful Billy Wright or Goree Carter LP fort covers) but other such as the above Harptones LP were just the slapdash thrown-together "work" of couldn't-care-less cover "artwork" people. In cases like this it's not just that you wonder if the music played by people willingly dressing in such sartorial horrors can be any good but you have to look and search hard to find out if the music matches the suits(both of which you'd abhor) or if it really is just a mismatch. So dissuasive covers like this in fact do the sales of the record a disservice. As for not giving a damn about how one looks, no doubt these were signs of the times too, but I find this less intruding than the above mismatch. And, for example, I have yet to see any Big Town Playboys record from the 90s where the guitarist is shown wearing only socks (to his already sloppy outfit) and no shoes as he had a habit of doing at gigs. @MG: If you want music from that period and in that musical style - fine. Looking at musicians dressing in the more cliché-laden way of what may have been considered hip at THAT time is part of the mix. But like I said, if the cover leads THAT far away from the contents of the record then you get to wondering ....

For how long did Tony Scott live in Japan?

Honestly, I think mike-ing and recording of the bass part is only part of the problem. My main quibble is that the bass players of those times too often tried to play the busybodies trying impose themselves into the overall mix way too much instead of just keeping the pulse of the rhythm going and flowing (outside their solo space). In short, it is the STYLE of bass playing of that period that very, very often bugs me. The leaders of the dates apparently felt differently and this opinion of mine may make me a "moldy fig" but anyway ....

Maybe because a) IMHO the bass ought to provide some sort of pulse or "body" and these bass men don't. Intruding and overamplified (or ineptly amplified - probably, but that doesn't help matters), and to my ears they just get in the way, trying to show they can "do their solo thing too" at a moment when their place isn't among the soloists. (But that's just my personal impression, and maybe I am expecting things incorrectly, given what the times - and their musical trends - were like, but then I'll just side - again - with those over in the Shirley Scott thread who feel they won't like to touch many jazzmen's output from decades that have that different stylistic connotations) b) I did not pay that much attention to the cymbals, maybe not expecting much in the first place (or being glad there were any at all), seeing what drummers' work in 70s/80s music - outside jazz - often was like (making you wonder what the drummers had cymbals for anyway) In short, apparently some can handle the bass better, some can handle the cymbals better. Different strokes ...

Are you thanking yourself?

Indeed. Lousy and typical. Droning, resonating, interfering. It most often was the bass part that has marred several interesting LPs I bought from that recording era (trying to give the recordings a chance but a bit disappointed because of this afterwards). Don't know what the bassists thought they were doing? Ray Brown must have felt a very, very lonely (and old-fashioned) man during that period,

Simple. Because tastes differ. Luckily. Which should not prevent anyone from exploring what he may have heard on others' turntables or playlists but makes this kind of LISTS just irrelevant. They are not nearly as "greatest" in a universally applicable way as anyone would think.

I suppose you all are talking about SINGLE-CD longboxes? Cannot consciously remember having seen them often in the early days of the CD - maybe because the music of interest to me always came in jewel cases. I often saw (and bought some) CD sets in longboxes of the half-LP size and still find them quite practical. Contrary to many of the smaller box sets current now that are just fatter versions of the single-CD packages they at least allow the pictures in the liner notes to be reproduced decently.

I've read his "Jazz: Its Evolution and Essence" quite a long time ago and while I find it quite interesting his approach, like you say, just appears very stiff and "stern". Like in some of his recording projects from that period, his classical background becomes overbearing at times - at least to me (maybe because I am not a musician?). The translation of my copy is by one David Noakes (I've no idea if it was re-translated for other printings - I doubt it). I have yet to see and read the French original "Hommes et problèmes du jazz" (isn't there a hint at his approach in the title - "problems" of jazz???) but I've read quite a few of his contemporary features in Jazz Hot from the 50s and early 60s - and yes, they often are very, very dry and academic.

From what I've read of him and about him elsewhere Hodeir had a tendency of being overly, really overly "scholarly", stifling the music (yes, and its "essence" - pun intended ) in the process. So this one sounds like he loosened up a little at last. Might indeed be interesting.

Any comments, opinions? What are your impressions of the book? The subject is an interesting and rewarding one, though it's been covered before and from many angles (paging Allen Lowe ... , not to mention the writings by Nick Tosches, Jim Dawson & Steve Propes, Ed Ward a.o.). So i wonder if this one offers something SUBSTANTIALLY new or an original approach to the subject matter compared to other publications. The info on Amazon (including the reviews) unfortunately is mostly sales blurb and reads as if those commenters who are awestruck by the contents are part of those who are totally clueless about the subject.

Agreed with Brad, and I have the same reservations about how certain artists evolved that Joshuakennedy has Many of the 50s artists DID evolve towards funked-up or fusion styles that just don't do it for me either. I won't blame it on them - some just naturally evolved, others swam with the tides, but often it's just not my cuppa. My own experience: Once bitten, twice shy. And with the possibilities you have today, like Brad said, you would be well advised to check out first - on Youtube or similar. I am following this thread a bit closer right now as I have lately been on some kind of late 50s/early 60s organ jazz trip . So in all fairness, talking about straight-ahead organ jazz, there is an exception that I think deserves mentioning - the Rhoda Scott CD in the Jazz in Paris series (No. 34). Duos with Kenny Clarke (dr) recorded in Paris in May, 1977. Fine straight-ahead organ jazz apparently untouched by modernization trends. It could just as well have ben done in the early 60s, and I don't think she ever tried to consciously do a "nostalgia" album. She just did her thing, untouched by fads. I bought this during a stay in Paris in 2006 along with others from that series. I had been wary of this when I saw the recording date but the recommendation by Brownie was spot-on. No fusioned-up stylistic mishmash there but all-straightforward, no-frills stuff. So this is getting a few more spins again here these days.

+1 This was my summer holiday lecture a couple of years ago. Excellent! ("El foggo" - heehee! )