Big Beat Steve

You're approaching one certain (non-attire) Herbie Mann album cover FAST.

Exactly. Except that in my case it is the very early to mid-70s, mostly in the case of blues and R&B men who'd had their heyday in the early 50s or thereabouts. These cats looked really sharp in their prime in the early post-war years but the 70s funk back alley garb in garish colors hung on ageing elderly gentlemen? Ouch ... Some of them may still have been going strong musically by the 70s but others tried to update their image and music in a contrived way that was just painful to watch (in the case of their outfits) and hear (in the case of their funked-up music). Johnny Otis tried to serve a noble cause with his Blues Spectrum records but not all of them IMHO were successes - and they were the better ones. Then there were other recordings that did not do the aritsts a real service. Though I understand that they tried to grab another bit of the action and "stay with it" later on. As for their "fashion sense", no problem with Johnny Guitar Watson loking sharp in the 50s AND in the 70s in the styles of the times - but Charles Brown and others? There WERE others who managed to look much more dignified in their later years (e.g Buck Clayton). But probably the early to mid-70s were a bad time to look decent for almost anybody. And yes - the hideous "art"work of many LP covers of the 70s did not help matters. The one below was particularly awkward. Photo totally out of tune with the contents, and if it had not been for the fact that I was aware of this group at the time (1976/77 or so) and knew some of their 50s tunes and for some brief hints in the liner notes that these were the original recordings from the 50s I would have given it a pass (I had been licked before with records that turned out not to be reissues but re-recordings). Reissues of those doo-wop groups were very thin on the ground over here at the time but even so I literally had to force myself to look beyond the cover to shell out for it. Like with many reissues from that era. As for Al Hirt - incidentally, I was aware of his music from a very early phase of my collector's life but never was overly interested. His clothing would not have put me off, though ... (Gheorghe might understand the following) he actually just looked like an older brother or uncle of our Bill Ramsey (a G.I. who stayed here after his service from the mid-50s, made his mark as a pop singer on the German scene and more of less was the first to do out-and-out novelty songs of a livelier sort but also was a fairly good jazz and blues singer who a.o. appeared at the 1957 Jazz Festival in Sopot (Poland) which was released on a Muza 10" LP. He made his presence felt on the German jazz scene later on) and other acts in that vein. And for US jazz fans - considering the times, where's the fundamental difference betwen Al Hirt and the loud plaid outfits worn at times by the Les Brown band in the 50s? And Hirt certainly looked less silly than Acker Bilk (which may not be saying much, admittedly ). In short, wearing such garb as a gimmick is one thing (that you may like or not) but wearing garish stuff in all seriousnes (like in the case of many 50s R&B singers turned old yet trying desperately to stay "in tune" is something quite different again ...)

"Have" is a word that you like to avoid like the plague, innit??

I agree, Brad, and I usnderstand your motivations. And I for one did not feel offended, i just wanted to add a bit to the overall picture in order make it less one-sided. It IS complex. But .... .. sorry to disagree, Mike, but that's a cheap way of chickening out in one crucial aspect if he tried to limit it to this so-called "traditions" and "courtesy". Old-time courtesy is all very well within one's own four walls but we do live in today's world and a person of such prominence ought to be aware of the implications, particularly if such a meeting is obviously being instrumentalized for political ambitions like it was here. And this means that he was going well beyond the common ground of passably democratic and decent behavior that a role model is called upon to live up to in a situation like this. No sensible reason to accept double standards. After all, there are enough migrants (including many of Turkish origin) who do not agree with what he did and how he tried to wriggle out of it by trying to "explain" it either. BECAUSE they are aware of the situation of migrants and even more so of what goes on down in their country of origin. You can't have it both ways - enjoy the benefits of a democratic society on the one hand and then, on the other, pretend you have to retreat into so-called traditionalism-minded "courtesy" whenever it suits you and your interests best and hope to get away with it because allegedly your "roots" "dictate" you such behavior. You (meaning people like Özil) certainly cannot separate the office (president) from the person. Least of all in these circumstances and at such a moment. Unless - of course - you are fine with what the person in that office does. But then stand for it and live with the reactions. Sharply criticizing the footballer for such action is not racism per se. From a certain point you (i.e. anybody in such a situation of reconciling conflicting aspects of two cultures) just have to make up your mind and decide where you actually want to be and what kind of society you want to embrace. Particularly if you are considered a role model. That may be a downside of being that prominent and taking in everything that comes with it but that's the way it is. Virtually everywhere.

Watch out, Brad, if you bring up THIS topic - this might turn out highly political ... MODS alert ... You are quoting an article from an English source that gives a somewhat one-sided slant to this affair as they fell prey to Özil's statement being worded in English (strange for someone who wants to speak out to Germans, the German national team being above all a German affair - unless of course you consider this to be a thing that addresses his WORLDWIDE followers on the social media in the first place) What German football authorities said after the World Cup about Özils's failure ot live up to expectations was extremely silly and uncalled for. He most definitely was not the only one who messed things up and was not the only one to blame. Such a slant in what they said was bloody stupid. And the way the German football assocation had handled this affair before the WC (hoping it would abate by itself) was just as incompetent. They simply had no balls in all this. However, Özil and Gündogan did an utterly stupid thing in posing with Erdogan who, apart from the havoc he wreaks in Turkish society and democracy, had gone out of his way for months and months to insult Germany and Germans as Nazis (mainly because German politicians did not wish the Turkish election campaign to be conducted in Germany with public appearances by Turkish politicians here - like the Netherlands and Austria, for example, did not wish to be done too, if you remember), in openly calling on Turkish immigrants in Germany and other Western European countries to above all stay Turkish and certainly not meddle too deeply (or worse still, assimilate) in the country they live in, in insulting and threatening German politicians of Turkish descent who had openly criticised his anti-democratic and authoritarian actions, claiming they had "bad blood" and wanting their "blood" tested to see if they actually had any "Turkish blood" left in them, and so on and so on. Do you ACTUALLY think such figures endear themselves to the hearts of many here? Do you actually think those who apparently are not above posing with such a figure at a time when this Erdogan is in the middle of an ELECTION campaign will not be blamed for it - for good reasons? Would anybody be naive enough to believe for a second this was a strictly private meeting out of sheer politeness and not a highly political meeting where the photos taken and publicized were used to raise more support for Erdogan? Remember he had significantly higher votes for himself among the Turkish community in Germany than he had in Turkey itself. What would the public reaction have been in the UK if a UK footballer of renown had posed publicly with today's offsprings of Enoch Powell, for example? The very, very best you can say in their favor is that Özil and Gündogan were EXCEEDINGLY ill-advised by their advisers/agents (themselves of Turkish descent too, BTW) in posing for these photographs. This unnecessary action created a lot of unrest and uproar in the preparatory phase before the WC and certainly cannot have helped in the preparations. Gündogan at least saw fit to issue a statement soon afterwards that he definitely was proud to play in the German team, etc. etc. Özil remained mute throughout. And when he did say something in most recent times (before resigning) his key statement was that he would do it again anytime. Ain't that strange all in all? Besides, the invitation to meet up with Erdogan had been extended to another international Turkish-German player, Emre Can, who refused to participate, however. And he does not seem to have suffered from it. So there WOULD have been a way out if you have enough of an intellect to sense the implications of this situation. Sorry to say, but if you are enough of a celeb in a position like this then you are in the public eye and have a responsiblity to assume in your role. As to those who might now ask if a celeb is not entitled to his personal view - well, he is, but if his personal views take forms like this then he is bound to meet with stiff opposition from many sides. And mind you, beyond the usual irresponsible and incurable dimwits in social media who engage in racist commentaries (and who BTW exist in the same way the other way round when it comes to insults and serious threats by diehard nationalist Turks within the Turkish community in Western Europe and/or, more specifically, Germany against those Turks or Germans of Turkish descent who openly speak out against the political situation in Turkey and/or the behavior of those openly unwilling to integrate themselves in any way in their host societies and countries - being called a traitor is the mildest insult there) Özil was NOT put down as not being a German after all but rather was criticized for the political statement he made in this way and at this time. You cannot expect a German footballer of strictly German descent to meet with much sympathy if he openly sympathizes and poses for photographs with a right-wing extremist German politician at election time (and very rightly so!) so why should Özil be cut any slack in this way if he decides to make a statement like this? If for no other reason than as a German he ought to have felt just as insulted by the Nazi insults voiced by Erdogan - unless of course he said to himself "Hey I am of Turkish background so he can't mean me" which of course raises the inevitable question of to what extent you can have your cake and eat it. In short, Brad, let the affair rest where it is. There are many more layers and aspects to this than the Guardian managed (or saw fit) to grasp.

Not so sure. I've encountered quite a few (maybe) negative but definitely judgmental (and pigeonholing) rock and country fans too - yes, and blues too. There stills seems to be a core "purist" blues fraternity who will shudder at the thought of the evolution of blues as in R&B and whatever came afterwards. As for jazz fans, maybe their "judgmental" attitude to some extent comes from the fact that in the recent few decades there have been times when whatever would not fit any other musical category was lumped in with jazz, though those who lumped this music in apparently had no deeper interest in (actual) jazz (even in a wider stylistic sense) as such but just found the "jazz" marketing tag and its connotations of use to them.

Talking about cover pics and what the artist looks like, are they all actually real or have some been photoshopped in recent times, I wonder? If you look at contemporary photographs you will see that earlier ones show she had a discernible gap between her two front teeth (a detail that sometimes helps to date the photographs) - that no longer appeared in later photographs. Probably she had had dental surgery performed on her teeth at some time but other details of the pic on the 1944-1946 Classics CD, for example, do look like this one comes from the "gap" period. Strange ...

Wasn't Leggio more obscure, at least in the 50s/60s? Shouldn't Dick Hafer be a (fairly) household name from his presence in the 50s Woody Herman Herds? And then on "The Herdsmen Play Paris" (Fantasy) and with the Nat Pierce-Dick Collins Nonet (also on Fantasy).

I somehow agree with you with these "name" artists. It takes some figuring out to find out what to buy to close gaps in your collection (if you want to minimize overlaps with other reissues). OTOH, i think Dan Gould nailed it when he spoke of the "new to CD" camp. Since you mentioned Wynonie Harris, their CDs reach back to the time in the 90s when vinyl and CDs coexisted in the record shops. I remember picking up one of the Ace CDs (Women Whiskey and Fishtails) and was pleased to see that in adition to some inevitable overlaps they had included a fair share of tracks new to reissue and not to be found on the then-current vinyls - as if to specifically fill a few known gaps on the reissue market. However, I'll give them lots of credit for the way they explore even more obscure artists and give them their "reissue due". Their compilations from the Modern/RM stable (e.g. the Mellow Cats & Kittens series) or the John Dolphin labels are second to none. They take chances that hardly any other labels do. Bear Family and the like took chances with their box sets that maybe Ace find them to be too much of a good thing and therefore of limited marketability (according to THEIR criteria ..). Different strokes ...

So read here if you will: https://news.allaboutjazz.com/solving-the-metronome-riddle.php @Justin V: See the above link too. The man who made the #1 slot is given there. No Cecil Payne in sight, though. As for what "jazz fans" can do, overall this must have leveled out pretty much over the years and each one got his turn eventually, but odd results reflecting "popular" tastes that did not seem to match the tastes of those with more "sophisticated" tastes occurred rather often through the decades. Whenever I read a poll in old jazz magazines it somehow seemed to be second nature to the scribes to comment on this or that "odd" choice and try to find explanations (or excuses). But no doubt you are aware of the 1947 Esquire promotional hubbub about the "best" jazzmen that certainly was NOT fans' (or critics') polls. You wouldn't want to have it that way either, would you?

I for one am VERY interested in such obscurities and am very, very glad they brought them up in most cases - not so much the alternates (which sometimes one can do without and sometimes they are nice add-ons) but tunes that were never issued at the time. There must be a lot out there - in many fields of music. Just for comparison (outside the field of operation of Ace, but the problem no doubt existed in early post-war R&B or R'n'R fields too): If you run through the entries in the discography below .... https://www.amazon.com/Discography-Western-String-1928-1942-Discographies/dp/0313311161/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532599828&sr=8-1&keywords=discography+of+western+swing&dpID=41CxhILI2jL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch .... you OFTEN find tracks marked as "unissued" that - if the titles are anything to go by - must be very, very lively, uninhibited, danceable and entertaining, as opposed to a fair share of issued tracks that apparently were dictated by heavy-handed A&R men who wanted something "for all the family" along the lines of a "something old something new something borrowed something blue" aproach. (Cliff Bruner wasn't the only one who explicitly complained about this later on). No doubt many of the unissueds were found to be too raucous for "healthy, clean-cut" all-round appeal. I guess many of those pre-war unissueds for the majors are lost forever and only are documented by these ledger entries. so if Ace decides to make them available now at last in THEIR fields of reissues then all the better (I know I have discovered quite a few gems there that leave me puzzled as to why they never were released at the time). I agree that some items that may need to be re-reissued so far might not have been and in a few rare instances I have found the share of alternate takes a bit frustrating too (but which recordings exactly that need to be reissued are YOU thinking of?). However, I do not think this is matter of trying to protect at least part of their releases from being "P.D.-ed". The same policy has been followed for DECADES (way back in the vinyl era when these P.D. problems did not exist yet) by other British reissue labels such as Flyright and Krazy Kat and - sometimes - Charly - (in addition to Ace) and may very well be a quirk of British discographers' and reissue producers' approaches in addition to a possible desire to bypass familiar master takes that HAD been reissued before elsewhere.

Discography (and much more) on assorted (in fact, most) blues and R&B labels of the 1945-60 era from Chicago: http://campber.people.clemson.edu/rsrf.html

Not all that surprised. Taking chances on "niche recordings" WITHIN this niche market is not for everybody. A bit of a pity anyway that they feel they have exhaused their material. There MUST be more (of the meatier kind) from the 78 rpm era. In 2005 I bought a "job lot" of 40s and early 50s U.S. 78s (lots, though not exclusivelly, of jazz and R&B - many singers). Among the lot were one or two Luis Russelll 78s on Apollo. Of course I figured I had some obscure finds on my hands, but listening proved a harsh deception. About as sugary, syrupy, square, stiff and straight as they come ... No doubt most if not all jazz fans would not have recognized the Luis Russell band known from the 30s (even taking all stylistic evolutions in the jazz field into account) The records went straight into the fleamarket/trade box of 40s U.S. pop 78s (from that lot) and sit there ... In short, if his entire output on the label was like this, then no regrets here ...

(Continuing the off-topic exhanges, but it IS interesting ... ) Thanks very much for this info. I must admit I had not thought of checking the Delmark website for information. From the above text it seems , though, that the Apollo reissue propject has lain dormant for some time and the text you extracted has not been updated for a while. The "new" Piney Brown CD mentioned (the one co-featuring Eddie Mack) has a copyright/production date of 2002. The reason I was asking about the recording/issue year up to which Delmark had secured the rights to the jazz recordings was that I was wondering if maybe items like this one (below) would be reissued too: https://www.discogs.com/Angelo-Di-Pippo-The-Jazz-Accordion/release/10048481 Though I figure that this would be likely only if Delmark had taken the "leave not even the tiniest pebble unturned for reissue material" approach as Ace did/does with the Modern/RPM catalog.

The pleasure was all mine.

But in the same vein, don't forget the 80s vinyl series released by Mercury (Japanese pressings) under the title "The Complete Dinah Washington on Mercury" which ran to NUMEROUS LPS, and then there also was the "Complete Dnah Washington" LP series on the (not quite that "official") Official label from Denmark in the late 80s. I remember seeing even the Japanese LP series in the local record stores at the time (but never picked it up). Those were the days when any decent reord shop had a Japanese import section (and in the 80s the prices weren't even that far beyond all the others yet). As for Columbia and "complete" collections, if you go beyond the singers, then they look like trailblazers to me (cf. the Duke Ellington twofer series released from the mid-70s - and there were others),

@Larry Kart: Agreed, that's quite possible. But when you come across a session in this context that - regardless of how great it is - somehow seems to be a "staple" of small band swing reissues to you then you are a little bit baffled. That's all. And I would not want to step in your way either.

Very interesting to hear these first-hand recollections. I am not aware of all the reissues that Demark did and don't know if you are, but would you agree that there should be a LOT more in the vaults? And do you happen to know up to what recording year the jazz masters were included?

Yes, excellent tracks. Though, truth be told, they have been around a VERY long time for those inclined to seek them out and listen: 1971: RCA LPV-578 1990: RCA NL82180

OK, so I'll quote from the fine print inside the booklet to the "West Coast Jive" CD (DD-657),published in 1992, hoping that you will accept this statement as being a "statement of fact" (or do you think they would expose themselves to ligitation THAT easily?) "Delmark has acquired the rights and surviving source material of the long out-of-print blues and jazz masters, and is presenting them in this Apollo series, including numerous unissued performances and alternate takes." Sounds similar to what Ace did with the Modern/RPM masters,except that Ace admittedly resurrected a LOT more.

It looks like they do - at least they did during the 90s when they reissued several compilations of Apollo recordings.

Indeed ...

I guess I like the Nash car publicity about best in this ... That trumpet player has done his share of listening to Clyde McCoy, it seems ... A glimpse at how the media establishment would have liked the teen-aged 50s to be and evolve ... Things evolved differently, as we know ... But he deserves credit for having an integrated audience at this early date of 1952. Cannot have been that common at that time.

That's the "L'Interrogatoire de Julien" track discussed earlier in this thread. IMO this is one of those cases where the soundtrack cannot really stand on its own without the movie. I guess they also omitted it BECAUSE it has no horns (i.e. no Miles Davis as the leader of the session).

I understand. I have no idea how and on what licensing basis they actually compiled this set but considering how open-handed they were about who was behind the project and where they operated from I figure it would have been rather too risky if this had been an all-shady affair. Maybe some French forumists can shed some light on this set. Someone must at least remember this set.