david weiss

I have an italian version of this CD, decent sound maybe a little better than the other live recording of this group that came out on vinyl on a hundred different labels. I love this version of the band and would have loved it to go on for a few more years. I love the off the hook version of the theme on the Live at Slugs record.

Have to agree with Clementine and jsngry regarding Max... to me he's an innovator, trendsetter and daddy to many great drummers. From many overheard conversations in many dressing rooms with many of those involved, the missing link you seek is Louis Hayes. Among other things, he was the first to play the hi-hat on all four beats at times, something Tony Williams made one of his signatures.

No, I believe the fresh sound stuff was recorded by Howard Rumsey at the Lighthouse earlier in the engagement. I've listened to every note that Blue Note recorded for these sessions (32 tracks total I think) and none of the tracks are the same as what is heard on the Fresh Sound CD (or the prior LP issues on various label)

You are right you shouldn't throw all the Spanish/Andorran into one basket but when they started cropping up I asked Jordi Pujol about them since he distributed them all and it seemed like a lot of them were run by relatives of his. I don't know about Lone Hill as I had already severed ties with Fresh Sound when releases from this label started appearing. I remember asking Jordi to remove the Jazz Factory or Discoforme rip-off release of the Mingus Uptown set from his web-site as it was a blatant rip-off and I think he actually did for a minute. None of these companies pay royalties.

The Fresh Sound LP issues were for the most part if not all illegal. I know for a fact the Pacific Jazz stuff was not authorized. Some were just dubs from LPs (not all of them clean either). I'm not familiar with the Route 66 label but what was source he used to get these recordings if not from the original record companies. He probably licensed the recordings from the record companies. I believe all record companies in Europe have to pay an advance on publishing royalties when they release a record. Yes many record companies ripped off artists for years but you seem to be condoning the continuation of this practice. Some of the wrongs have been righted over the years and even when a wrong isn't committed, sometimes a label will correct some things. Blue Note wiped the slate clean for all the artists that recorded for the label in it's heyday so they didn't have to recoup before they could collect royalties. Also, maybe I don't understand how you are using the word ethics. I don't see how it would even be a question for the estates of these musicians to reap the rewards of the work their parents or grandparents did. Put yourself into this situation, wouldn't you want your children (or grandchildren) to benefit from any proceeds of any work (or investments you made) you did rather than anyone else. It's ridiculous to me that this question is even debated. The 50 year copyright law is a strange law and not a fair one. It gives these companies the right to put out material that others legitimately own in their country without compensating anyone. This is criminal but it is the law. I wonder how such a law could be made. Just because it's a law doesn't make it right. That's the only ethical issue I see here.

Steve Grogan quarterback for the New England Patriots for a few years....

Oh and I think Bennie Maupin is an exceptional saxophone player

Yes, there is reason to dispute Bob on this account. I might have a clue as I "co-produced" the Blue Note re-issue of this material and also recorded for Fresh Sound Records and produced new recordings for them and have been to their offices in Barcelona and have some knowledge of their operations. Let me lay it out this way without relying on my inside knowledge. Yes, the group was at the Both/And the week before the Lighthouse. Yes, it's possible that there was a radio broadcast from the Both/And. But how does anyone know that this is the material that is on the Fresh Sound CD. Does Bennie remember what he (or Lee or anyone) played that night and when he heard the Fresh Sound CD (if he ever has heard the Fresh Sound CD) said oh yes I remember playing that lick the night of the radio broadcast 30 years ago. Now, the Fresh Sound release says original recording produced by Howard Rumsey and there are other Live at The Lighthouse recordings released on Fresh Sound. Now just on these facts, where do you think the material on the Fresh Sound release was recorded? The band was at the Lighthouse for two weeks and the Blue Note material was recorded towards the end of the engagement. I still firmly believe the Fresh Sound material was recorded at the Lighthouse earlier in their run at the club. By the way, there is probably 3 or 4 more CDs worth of material from this date still in the Blue Note vaults. We put out one version of every tune they recorded but there are 3 or 4 versions of many of the tunes recorded. Picking the strongest performances of each tune was easy in most cases except for a couple of incidences. I had about three or four bootleg LPs with the strange titles and all this stuff is the stuff that's on the Fresh Sound CDs.

There is also a chance that the majors will eventually make all this stuff available through ITunes or some other downloadable format as the costs would be minimal and it would be just adding more titles to the list as it where. I think at the moment there are still some difficulties with this, some hurdles to get over but at some point in the future this will probably be the way all this stuff becomes available (My idea would be downloads and vinyl re-issues for people who still like to own things and hold it in their hands)

Finally someone is beginning to ask the relevant questions. To begin with, Is anyone here really certain who owns these companies? Could it be possibe, the "legits" and the " non legits" are actually owned in whole or in part by the very same folks? I am sure that is something they may not desire to reveal, but is anyone on this Board privy to the vast corporate ownership of all of these various entities. Most of these huge international corporations have so many various corporate subsidiaries and sister corporations it would take a forensic accountant to trace where all the nickels go. Has anyone tried to trace the nickels? It probably would remind you of a giant pachinko machine!. Don't mean to be cynical here but I sure don't know who owns these corporations. I think there are folks here that are presuming some things that may not be true. And about the 50(Eur) vs. 70(US) year copyright law that seems to trouble so many here. Since in the majority of cases the artist is dead by the time the material goes into the public domain, are we not really arguing about whether the public gets the continued benefit of his/her art......vs. some corporation, and to a much lesser degree, his/her heirs. Part of that discussion should include your views on the social relevance of an Estate Tax and should any society allow wealth( of any nature) to be continually passed from one generation to the next or should society expect its citizens/heirs to go out and create their own art and their own wealth. Just a question. I raise these issues because they would appear to be germaine to any discussion regarding the posted topic. These companies are villified on a regular basis on this Board, but does anyone really have all the facts? Do we even know who owns them? If it should turn out that at least some of the legits and non legits have some type of common ownership then I ask you, who is the real villan then? If you owned one company that had to pay royalties and another that did not....well....???? Be careful what you presume. Until all the facts are determined I think I will just be thankful someone is keeping this great music alive !! Well, I have some knowledge of these companies and I can answer some of your questions for certain as you bring up some troubling things. First off, these companies have no, none, zero ties to any major labels or the corporations that run them. These companies are small operations, 2 or 3 people tops usually. Fresh Sound probably has 3 people working in the office (including the owner) and maybe a few more working in the warehouse where the CDs are stored and shipped from. They do not license anything from any major labels. The only perhaps legitimate thing I know of with a major label is that Fresh Sound/Absolute Distribution might legitimately distribute RCA product in Spain and legitimately license RCA recordings from BMG. Other than that, anything that was on a major label that is released by these guys are not legitimately licensed . They do have the copyright law on their side if it's over 50 years old (or 35 years if it's Andorra I'm told) but that is just for that country. The companies selling this product in the US are probably technically more guilty. I don't know why the major labels don't go after these people. I guess they just don't think it's worth their time. It would probably be difficult to track them down, sue them in their country etc etc. They don't even have addresses on their CDs so we don't really know what country some of these labels are operating out of. If the majors really wanted to go after people, their best bet again would be the places selling these products in this country. The Miles Davis estate goes after these guys all the time and the stuff disappears from the shelves. That said, Fresh Sound has legitimately bought the catalogs of some labels and has legitimately licensed some stuff. They do do a great job with some of these re-issues and come from a place of love and knowledge when putting some of these things together. They have also bought live tapes from people and released them but just because they bought the tape from someone doesn't give them the right to put it out without clearance from the artists or their estates. As for the estate issues you raise. Are you suggesting that a shady record label should benefit more from an artist's recordings then his or her heirs? At least if it was released legitimately the estate would see some money. And since a lot of these artists didn't make a lot of money, there's a pretty good chance that the wife or children of these artists could use the money. Do you have children Morganized? Will you cut them out of your will and tell them to create their own art or wealth or would you like them to be taken care of? Most major labels don't think it's worth the effort to re-issue most of their jazz catalog. They are part of major corporations that have a philosophy that they have to make a huge profit on everything they do. Most jazz titles don't fit this model so I guess it's good someone is making this stuff availible but it doesn't make it right. It's a wrong but there are much bigger wrongs out there to keep you up at night or distract you enough from feeling guilty about enjoying some great music released by a questionable label.

Eddie Henderson Realization and Sunburst are closet I think

Sonny Rollins A Night at the Village Vanguard Sonny Rollins Volume 2 Wayne Shorter Speak No Evil Wayne Shorter The All Seeing Eye Jackie McLean It's Time Joe Henderson Our Thing Joe Henderson Page One Larry Young Unity Andrew Hill Black Fire Herbie Hancock The Prisoner Herbie Hancock Empyrean Isles I know that 11 but it's impossible to remove one Horace Silver Further Explorations by the... Lee Morgan Search for the New Land Lee Morgan Live at the Lighthouse Art Blakey Free For All Freddie Hubbard Blue Spirits also deserve mention and to cheat ever further how about the best of the records that were originally rejected and released later Wayne Shorter The Soothsayer Grant Green Solid the Tina Brooks date with Johnny Coles the Freddie Redd date with Benny Bailey Stanley Turrentine Mr. Natural Lee Morgan Tom Cat Lee Morgan The Procrastinator the Hank Mobley date with Kenny Dorham and Sonny Clark Andrew Hill Pax

When Horace Silver started his Silveto label (late 70's early '80s I think), he sold his records at the gig. He would sit at the side of the stage after the set and sell LPs and sign them and chat with the patrons. This is how I met him while still in college. Three of us chipped in to buy the live record he put out with Joe Henderson. It did cause a bit of a dilemma when Horace asked who he should sign the record to

I'm a huge Shorter fan but never really thought that much of this CD. I love Angola and a few other snippets here and there but to me, some things don't work very well and some of the shorter tunes and interludes don't come off at all and I've wondered why they were included.

This assessment is pretty much dead on. I'd say I'm about 95% sure it's Booker and now is the only record that Booker is on that I don't own.

Thought I'd take a moment to clear up a few things and add my two cents.... I have to admit that the cover was a bit of a shock to me when I first saw it, I thought they would go with a more classic Blue Note look. Don't have much to add about the Mosaic/Blue Note thing except to perhaps suggest that kind folks at Mosaic had a lot to do with getting the ball rolling on this project. For more complete clips (and a video clip of us at the Pori Jazz Festival in July 2004......sorry about the sound) of the record go to Charles' MySpace page. Sorry there are no clips of Billy Harper's solo on Mourning Variations, it's killing. http://www.myspace.com/charlestolliverbigband I don't think all this has much to do with the Mosaic/Strata-East thing mentioned in the Mosaic booklet. As I've mentioned before, a lot of the titles have reverted back to the artists so it's on them to release their CDs. I think all of these that are mentioned above "Sonny Fortune - Long Before Our Mothers Cried, Charles Sullivan - Genesis, Ron Burton - The Waterbearers, Shirley Scott - One for Me. " have reverted back to the artists. That said, there are still enough things left in the catalog to make another interesting box set or two. We'll be at IAJE January 13 and the CD release party will be at the Jazz Standard January 30- February 3. Enjoy!

Up as we are doing this again The Cookers Charles Tolliver- Trumpet James Spaulding- Alto Sax Billy Harper- Tenor Sax David Weiss- Trumpet George Cables- Piano Cecil McBee- Bass Gene Jackson- Drums This coming Wednesday and Thursday at the Jazz Standard 116 East 27th Street Sets at 7:30 and 9:30 pm Hope you can make it out....

Up, as this is still going on. Every Thursday at Fat Cat, 10 pm start There's some great new young talent in this band Hope some of you can make it out at some point... David Weiss and the Point of Departure Quintet David Weiss- Trumpet J.D. Allen- Tenor Sax Nir Felder- Guitar Luques Curtis- Bass Jamire Williams- Drums

Up for a few final additions and price reductions. I'm probably going to wrap this up Saturday. Everyone who paid by Thursday afternoon has had their items shipped. Thanks

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A shame, great drummer. Heard him just a couple of months ago here in New York with Hatfield and the North. The band was great and Pip looked fine. You never know I guess.

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