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Interestingly, later Trane and Ayler brought me in reverse back to some of that music. Several fantastic collections have been released in recent years. In writing the notes to the reissue of Patty Waters' ESPs, I compared her work to some of the vocal acrobatics/wide vibrato of some early 20th c. gospel singers.

In Coeur d'Alene ID is Hudson's Hamburgers. They offer Hamburgers Cheeseburgers and some Hamburger with egg thing, iirc. Pickles and onions are the additional items i believe. At the counter (no tables) they have ketchup and some wicked good hot mustard. They have a soda fountain with Green River on tap, but no fries. The grill-master has a bag of significantly non-lean burger in a stainless tub. When you place your order he grabs a handful of beef, forms the patty and tosses it on the grill. Is it the best burger I have ever eaten, probably not, but it is one of my favorite place to stop when I'm over that way. Best hamburger I ever had was with blue-cheese and served on a toasted english muffin. Mmmm

I hope Forum members in the DC area will visit this link to what may be the premier discussion group for "foodies" in the area, i.e. Don Rockwell, at http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?showtopic=6372 The site may even be of interest to those of you outside the area. I am personally not a fan of the prepackaged hamburger patty, unseasoned and slapped on a grill. Salt and pepper, to say the least.

I wonder if any of the cinephiles on the Board can help me here. I'm trying to find out the name of a movie I didn't see back in the '90s. Let me explain: in the early '90's I lived for a time in Montreal and I used to go to movies at Concordia University, which had an excellent film series. In one of their programs there was an ad for a Yugoslavian (?) movie from the late '60's or early '70's featuring a scantily clad woman wearing a gorilla mask and holding a big gun (sub-machine gun? M-16? Kalashnikov? ). In my memory the pose is somewhat like the famous Patty Hearst photo. The film was supposedly very avant garde. I didn't get to see the movie and I am now wondering what it was called and whether it has been put out on DVD. Anyone have any ideas? This is not a joke, by the way, although I may be remembering some of the details wrong... Thanks.

DVD? It's a 9-CD box set (all seven Warner Bros. LPs plus some other stuff): Disc: 1 1. Super Nigger 2. Girls 3. Farting 4. Prison Play 5. T.V. Panel Show 6. Smells 7. Army Life 8. Frankenstein Disc: 2 1. I Hope I'm Funny 2. Nigger With Seizure 3. Have Your Ass Home by 11:00 4. Black and White Life Styles 5. Exorcist 6. Wino Dealing With Dracula 7. Flying Saucers 8. Back Down 9. Black Man/White Woman 10. Niggers Vs. The Police 11. Wino and Junkie Disc: 3 1. Eulogy 2. Shortage of White People 3. New Niggers 4. Cocaine 5. Just Us 6. Mudbone (Intro) 7. Mudbone: Little Feets 8. When Your Woman Leaves You 9. Goodnight Kiss 10. Women Are Beautiful 11. Our Text for Today 12. Ali Disc: 4 1. Hillybilly 2. Black and White Women 3. Our Gang 4. Bicentennial Prayer 5. Black Hollywood 6. Mudbone Goes to Hollywood 7. Chinese Restaurant 8. Acid 9. Bicentennial Nigger Disc: 5 1. New Year's Eve 2. White and Black People 3. Black Funerals 4. Discipline 5. Heart Attacks 6. Ali 7. Keeping in Shape 8. Leon Spinks Disc: 6 1. Dogs and Horses 2. Jim Brown 3. Monkeys 4. Kids 5. Nature 6. Things in the Woods 7. Deer Hunter 8. Chinese Food 9. Being Sensitive Disc: 7 1. Women 2. Prison 3. Africa 4. Mafia Club 5. Mudbone 6. Freebase 7. Hospital Disc: 8 1. Here and Now 2. Southern Hospitality 3. Slavery 4. Motherland 5. I Met the President 6. Fire Exit 7. Mudbone, Pt. 1 8. Mudbone, Pt. 2 9. Inebriated 10. One Night Stands 11. One Day at a Time 12. I Like Women 13. Being Famous 14. I Remember 15. Interview [#] Disc: 9 1. Introduction [#] - Tom Dreesen 2. Mudbone Goes to Hollywood [Alternate Version][#] 3. Fame, Pt. 1 [#] 4. Black Messiah [#] 5. Life [#] 6. Death [#] 7. My Funeral [#] 8. Acid [Alternate Version][#] 9. Patty Hearst [#] 10. Fighting [#] 11. Law [#] 12. History Lesson [#] 13. I Don't Give a Fuck [#] 14. Fame, Pt. 2 [#] 15. Therapy [#] 16. W.A.S.P.'s [#] 17. Getting Older [#] 18. God [#] 19. Dog [#] 20. M.S. [#]

Inspired by another thread: Patty Waters - College Tour - (ESP orig)

That was the film that came to mind for me too Brownie when I saw this thread ! I seem to recall a scene with the protagonists running through a shopping centre with masks on holding machine guns (very Patty Hearst..) Very strange film about Wilhelm Reich's theories, as I recall, with an 'agitprop' theme to it. Lots of people sitting inside metal screened chambers and inducing orgasms in each other. When it was first broadcast here on UK TV back in the 1980s they stuck a little pink triangle on the screen - 'Viewer Discretion Advised'.

This was sent to me today by Jay Corre. Thought it was quite interesting and this MIGHT be the place to put it. --- For us Maynard fans-forwarded from Bill Lichtenour (sorry Bill if I mispelled your name) In April of 1972, I interviewed Willie Maiden for a book I was planning on Maynard Ferguson. The book deal never materialized, but I kept the tapes all these years. After Maynard’s death in August—about 30 years after Willie’s—I went through the tapes and have extracted the material I thought would be of greatest interest to Kentonia folks. -- Jim Szantor MAIDEN ON MAYNARD: I first became aware of Maynard when a good friend of mine from New Jersey, a guy I had known since the 6th grade, brought in a record of “All the Things You Are,” a 78 rpm recording with Charlie Barnet. This was around my 20th birthday. And I just couldn’t believe it. I mean, I believed the record; I just couldn’t believe anyone could play that way. I became an automatic fan. Coincidentally, this was during the whole complete year that I played nothing but trumpet. I was a tenor saxophone and clarinet player, so I had more than a passing acquaintance with that, but I felt I should learn to play the trumpet, just so I could learn to write for the instrument. And that’s what I was doing, the very same year I first heard Maynard! I mean, you can’t learn to play all the instruments for writing purposes, because you’d run out of years, but I thought the trumpet was so important that I had to learn to feel how it meant to be a trumpet player. And I didn’t play saxophone one note that year that I was playing the trumpet! I learned the capabilities as well as the responsibilities of being a trumpet player--as well as the difficulties, the breathing and so on. And I learned what it was like to play in the back row as well as the front row—that was part of it, too. MAIDEN WITH MAYNARD: I first met Maynard in April of 1952—two months after he left Stan’s band—through a Latin trumpet player named Pepe. We were working in a Latin band together on Friday nights in a Mexican neighborhood in LA. And this one night Pepe told me that “Maynard Ferguson needs some arrangements” and gave me his phone number. So I called Maynard, and he said, “Rehearsal’s at 1 o’clock tomorrow.” At a place that turned out to be a half a block from where I was living at the time. Now I had nothing to give Maynard; I had been writing for a band in New Jersey and sending them the charts. I had just sent a chart off to this band that very day, but it was a bigger band than what Maynard was using. So I sat up all night and rewrote this chart for Maynard’s instrumentation. Now I almost didn’t go that half a block to the rehearsal that day, even though I had the chart under my arm. I was, if you’ll excuse the expression, scared shitless. Because I had seen Maynard with Stan in 1950 at the Palladium, with Shorty and Ray Wetzel and Art Pepper and Fitz . . . . So I sat there in my car, wondering if I should go in there, or just forget the whole thing . . . and pretend I was big time the rest of my life. But I said to myself, “If you don’t find out now, you’ll never know. You’ve got to go in there.” How did it turn out? I ended up eating dinner at Maynard’s house that night; that’s how well we got along. There were a bunch of other arrangers there, with the charts they had brought in, but I was the only one invited to eat with Maynard. And Kay [brown, then Maynard’s wife] had to drive; Maynard didn’t know how. The name of the chart was “V8.” We never recorded it. It was a rehearsal band, not working hardly at all. Bob Gordon was in it, Fitz. Guys that just wanted to play. Bill Perkins was there, plus a kid drummer. But the band was excellent, and we rehearsed once a week. I wasn’t good enough to play with the band; I just wrote. I had been working with a band (Will Osborne) on alto and with the Johnny Pineapple band on tenor. Society bands; anybody could play those saxophone parts. Then the rehearsal band played a few gigs. See, Maynard had rejoined Stan in August of ’52, then went with Paramount in January of ’53, which takes us up to 1954. But he wouldn’t re-sign with the studio; he refused. He said he’d stay if they tripled his salary, but they wouldn’t, so that was it. We started with 7 pieces, then it was 8, then 9, then 10, then 11. We never had 12 for some reason; we ended up with the 13 everybody knows. “Around the Horn,” that was with 11 pieces. I was there at the recording. MAIDEN AND MONEY: “Maiden Voyage” on the “Dimensions” album was my first recorded chart with Maynard; August of 1954. Bobby Shad wouldn’t credit me because I was “an unknown.” He wanted a big star like Billy May. He complained to Maynard: “Why are you bringing in this kid?” but Maynard insisted. I wrote eight things in nine days and never got a mention, because of a disagreement over money. Shad would only pay me for three of the charts. But I was credited in a way, because the titles were “Maiden Voyage” and “Willie Nillie,” so Shad couldn’t help it! No writer’s credit! So Bobby Shad and I had it out over that. Later we were reunited at Mainstream, but he couldn’t mess with me then because I was established. But back then Maynard insisted on my doing the album, and he really stuck up for me. He said, “He’s my man; he knows how to do what I want it to sound like.” I got through Westlake (College of Music), parked cars for the cafeteria at Hollywood and Vine. Then I worked in the post office, then I got a playing gig for a week in Texas. Then my mother told me that Stan was working Jan. 3 at a place near where we lived, Pomona Grove. MF had just given notice at Paramount, and meanwhile I had written something for him. I lived across the street from him for over a year, in the Hollywood Hills. Flo [later Maynard’s wife] was living nearby with a chick named Patty, who married Herb Ellis. Then Maynard got called by Morris Levy to do the Birdland Dream Band in September of 1956, and he took one cat east with him, Herb Geller. Between the end of Paramount and the Dream Band, Maynard just worked casuals around town. Meanwhile, I was on the road with Perez Prado and Tommy Alexander. Scuffling? Lanny Morgan and I were stranded in New York with Tommy Alexander’s band, with no money! To save money, I lived with Jay Hill for two years in the early 1950s; we had the same teachers at Westlake College of Music—Russ Garcia and Dave Robertson [sp?]. We were friends from the start. I didn’t have a penny to my name, so at one point I had to go back to living with my folks. ON THE ROAD AGAIN: When Maynard got back in LA in October of ‘56 from the Dream Band, and he got a band together that was even better than the NY band. This was a contract he had signed with Joe Glaser of Associated Booking Corp. We had Mel Lewis; Herb Geller again, Fitz and Burgess on trombones, Ed Leddy and Joe Burnett on trumpet. Red Kelly, Paul Smith on piano . . . I was the only unknown. We played two weeks, then nothing for a month. Then they wanted us back at the same joint over Christmas until Jan. 6 of 57. We wrote the Christmas medley then, after conversations I had with Maynard. Then nothing! I went to NY for a month to write some songs, get my teeth fixed, and meanwhile they were working out bookings—three months’ worth. We left on that three-month tour on March 17 of 1957—and stayed out for nine years. That was the beginning of the road band. MAIDEN ON THE ORIGINAL CONCEPTION OF THE MF BAND: Maynard had come out of Stan’s band, but he didn’t want a band that large. He wanted something smaller. He said that in a smaller band he could get everything that Stan got if everyone worked a little harder. But he wanted a swing band, a band that swung more than was profound, with jazz for everybody. And with the exception of the lead trumpet player, everybody did. And every [personnel] change was made on the basis of the ability to play jazz, not on technical ability. And what I know now but didn’t realize then, when the ensemble parts are played by all jazz players, you could tell the results. It swung more. Do a lot of guys know their horns? Yes. Can they play their parts? Yes. But you shouldn’t have to explain how to play something; either you know how or you don’t. And jazz players know how to play something; legit players play it technically correct, but it won’t swing. That’s what makes the difference. If everybody plays their section parts like they play their choruses, that’s what makes it swing. It only takes 2 or 3 out of a whole band to mess up the thing, even if they’re playing it “correctly.” If you have to ask when to cut off a note. . . . Jazz players know that inherently. That’s what Maynard wanted—guys who didn’t need anything explained. Maynard wanted less bombast, more happiness, as far as swing goes. It would add to the freedom as far as stretch-outs; and everybody stretched out in that band. . . . THE LOWDOWN ON MAYNARD: The Ferguson band was still a Kenton-oriented kind of thing, with Maynard’s high-note ability. But Maynard, to me, is the greatest low-note trumpet player! Because the other high-note people couldn’t play the low notes that Maynard played. And Maynard realized the importance of low notes. And the screech players couldn’t play low notes. And Maynard’s sound was so good on low F-sharp! So after all the writers got hung up on high notes, he finally said, “This has got to stop. Just because I can do it doesn’t mean I have to do it all the time. Let’s play some music.” And that’s when he put in “Lazy Afternoon” and those things. And he’s the only one who can play the low notes right and the high notes too. Because he is a complete trumpet player. And when you add in the euphonium parts that he played, the French horn part on “Goodbye”. . . And the low notes are right in tune, too! It’s right, and it’s fat! I don’t care who you name; no one else can do it! The end of “Danny Boy.” That’s why he’s the greatest low-note trumpet player. ALL AROUND THE HORNS: I remember one night at the Steel Pier in Atlantic City. I took a nap this one day, left a call at the motel. They didn’t call! Suddenly the band boy calls from backstage, and the band is playing. Jesus! I overslept. And it’s like a 15-minute walk to the end of the ballroom to the bandstand. The band’s playing “Give Me the Simple Life,” my arrangement. And as I’m walking up there, Maynard plays MY solo on MY arrangement on MY tenor! Better than I could! So I picked up Maynard’s horn and cut off the band at the end. I mean, I had to do something! Maynard also played lead alto once in a while when someone was late. He could play slide as well as valve trombone. I hate to use the word “freak” because he wasn’t one! He just worked harder than anyone else did; he had more dedication and commitment. I will never consider him a freak. I hate when people call him that. Maynard and I . . . . We could talk to each other without any problem. About anything. We disagreed on who we should hire once in a while—like, Lynn Halliday or Don Menza. I preferred Menza, though I dug them both quite a bit. But Maynard wanted to hire Linn, so he got the gig. But when that didn’t work out, we got Don, and everyone knows how great that worked out. MR. CHOPS: The more we worked, the better Maynard’s chops were. He never practiced. In fact, most of the time he didn’t even know where his horn was. He took his mouthpiece with him, but the band boy packed up the horn. After a layoff, the first night back for him was kind of rough; it still sounded good, but he had to work harder to get it. But as the week went on, it got better and better.

Not all Portland, but I copy-and-pasted this information from the "Jazz Society of Oregon" website: Wednesday, November 1 Abou Karim Restaurant (221 SW Pine): "Portland Jazz Singers Showcase", 7:30-10:30pm Benson Hotel: Neil Masson Trio 8:30-11:30pm Dimitriou's Jazz Alley, Seattle: Sado Watanabe/Peter Erskine Trio Hilton Hotel, Alexander's Lounge, (23rd floor): Ron Steen Jam, 8pm-midnight, no cover, no smoking, parking validated with dinner, two drink minimum Jax Bar: KMHD/Jax Jazz Jam, hosted by the Hank Hirsh Quintet, 7:30-11pm, no cover, all ages Jimmy Mak's (221 NW 10th): Mel Brown Quartet, $5, 8pm Thursday, November 2 Abou Karim Restaurant (221 SW Pine): Anson Wright Trio Benson Hotel: Jean Ronne/Lee Wuthenow Duo, 8:30-11:30pm Dimitriou's Jazz Alley, Seattle: Keiko Matsui Heathman Hotel: Johnny Martin Trio, 7-10:30, all ages Hilton Hotel, Alexander's Lounge, (23rd floor): Ron Steen Jam, 8pm-midnight, no cover, no smoking, parking validated with dinner, two drink minimum Jax Bar: Pam Jordon Duo, 8:30-11:30pm, no cover, all ages Jimmy Mak's (221 NW 10th): Mel Brown B-3 Organ Band, $5, 8pm Friday, November 3 Benson Hotel: Jean Ronne Quartet with Lee Wuthenow, 8:30pm-12:30am Dimitriou's Jazz Alley, Seattle: Keiko Matsui Hilton Hotel, Alexander's Lounge, (23rd floor): Ron Steen Trio, 8pm-midnight, $5 cover, no smoking, parking validated with dinner Jax Bar: Hank Hirsh Quintet, 8:30-11:30pm, no cover, all ages Jimmy Mak's (221 NW 10th): Dan Faehnle LV's Uptown Jazz Club: Dave Frishberg & Rebecca Kilgore Salty's on the Columbia: Mel Brown/Tim Gilson/Jof Lee Saturday, November 4 Benson Hotel: Jean Ronne Quartet with Lee Wuthenow, 8:30pm-12:30am Cannon Beach: "Stormy Weather Festival", Sandy Dennison and Her Trio (Vincent Frates, Andre St. James), for info, email chamber@cannonbeach.org Dimitriou's Jazz Alley, Seattle: Keiko Matsui Hilton Hotel, Alexander's Lounge, (23rd floor): Ron Steen Trio, 8pm-midnight, $5 cover, no smoking, parking validated with dinner Jax Bar: West Coast Jazz Ensemble, 8:30-11:30pm, no cover, all ages Jimmy Mak's (221 NW 10th): Dr. Lonnie Smith, with Mel Brown & Dan Faehnle, tickets at TicketsWest LV's Uptown Jazz Club: Dave Frishberg & Rebecca Kilgore McMenamins Grand Lodge, Forest Grove: Ron Hughes, (solo acoustic baritone guitar, vocals), 7-10pm Oregon Coast Aquarium: "Oyster Cloyster", Patty & Brian Egan, Pieces of Eight, info at 541-574-7131 Salty's on the Columbia: Mel Brown/Ed Bennett/Jof Lee

Marzette Watts (tenor) featuring vocalist Patty Waters on a truly lyrical version of the song, from the Marzette Watts Ensemble Savoy LP, produced by Bill Dixon in 1969. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

Millard Sheets Patty Paige Erickson, Leif Robert Plant Tree Rollins George Bush

Millard Sheets Patty Paige Erickson, Leif

Yes, definitely!! I just picked up an eBay copy a couple of minutes ago. Also liked the sound of that Ruth Price w/Shelly Manne a good bit and found a copy over at Half.Com. Ghost, that Anita O'Day ('Sings the Most') is one of the few that I actually have....love it! The Irene Krall looks interesting. Alot of nice suggestions in each of the previous posts and I'll be referring back to this thread for quite some time. A good 8-10 jumped out at me -- that Beverly Kenney 'Sings for Playboys' for sure looks like one to check out, as does the Sarah Vaughan 'Swingin' Easy.' Oddly enough, JS, I do like the sound of that Betty Carter/Bryant cd and will probably get it as well......but you're correct about the Patty Waters. Thanks for all of the input.

chewy Peppermint Patty The Nugrape Twins

Patty Metheenday!

The Boxtops Barbara Boxer Patty Duke

• Pacific Gas & Electric • Patty Waters • The Telefones

Good post, Patty.

That's not my name Rod. But, I don't get apoplectic about it. If the worst thing that someone does is assign me a nickname, I'd consider myself Lady Luck's own tot. OK, just wondering. I know someone from my schooldays who used to go by "Debbie", but insists on being referred to as "Debra" now. Like Chewy, I've nothing to really add to this thread, except that it takes time, self-reflection and reassessment. Also, try to go and do something that you've always thought about doing, but have never taken the proper time to do. Sometimes that brings you back to zero and a new beginning. Hang in there Paul. Rod Rod, most people who know me in real life call me "Patricia." But, there have been a few who have called me "Patty". Nobody calls me "Pat" or "Patsy", thank God. I don't make a big deal about it, but when I introduce myself I use my name. If they choose to nickname me, I take it in the spirit in which it's done. Further to the flat comment about single guys/women sleeping with married guys/women, I of course meant if the single person knows and does it anyway. Marriage is complicated enough without somebody else agreeing to help the married person figuratively spit on their commitment to their spouse. Now, I'm not saying that people who do it are horrible people. I'm just saying that promising to stay faithful to one person lasts until they agree to end it. Otherwise, why be married? Many people, men and women, like the stabilty of marriage and the better lifestyle they have. But, they still see themselves as single and very often will go so far as to present themselves as single to unsuspecting people, which compounds the original intent to cheat. Thus, they have somebody who provides the variety that they don't have in their marriage. For both men and women, it's not about older vs younger, but old vs new. Women too get bored with their partners and are just as vulnerable to offers of an exciting, good-looking guy who seems to find them alluring. So this was not meant as a slam against men, but as an observation of what can happen to a relationship should we get too comfortable and forget that there are lots of temptations out there for both partners. It's very comfortable to have somebody at home doing all the things that make life pleasant, cooking, cleaning, child-raising etc. Many married people who get bored with their spouse think that it's perfectly fine to strike out on their own, from time to time, to see what they're missing out there. By doing that they risk their marriage, and that's their choice. Sometimes the very fact that they could get caught adds to the excitement. The other person is more exciting because they usually are not tasked with the day to day mundane details of which real life consists. My feeling is that if a married person should find themselves involved in an extramarital fling, the worst thing they can do is to confess to their spouse, if the other person didn't find out independantly. Why try to assuage one's guilt by passing on the pain to the non-cheating partner? The only reason anyone does that is to make themselves feel better. The thing about that is that the person they cheated on is then forced to make a decision between forgiving the cheater, or asking for a divorce. That, IMO, is a crappy thing to do. If the affair is over, the guilty person should just shut up and live with the guilt, vowing silently to shape up. But, I still say that anyone who thinks that they can carry on a long-term affair and not have their spouse know about it is fooling themselves. Their wife/husband at least suspects and in most cases actually knows. They are settling for a partner whom they can't trust. Who are we to judge how a wife/husband deals with the knowledge that they are being lied to, sometimes for years? Moralizing was certainly not my point. It was just that marriage is a very specific commitment and if we are not prepared to live up to that promise, the honest thing to do is to get out of Dodge.

I won't speak for Conn or how he thinks about the issue, but I never suggested anything about "equal guilt". I didn't either. Patty may have written something about that. (Conn already vowed not to say another word on this issue) Moose: shut up! This thread is about divorce and its repurcussions. We don't want to hear about your flings w/ married women!

Do you mind being called "Patty"? Rod

yes we agree w/ patty: SHES GOT SOMETHING YOU JUST CAN'T TRUST- SOMETHING MYSTERIOUS......

I don't think that it's a matter of women brewing for years and then just suddenly giving their partner the boot. Quite often the woman puts up with an untenable, to her, situation, hoping that it will change for the better. Of course she should say what's bothering her. Many times she isn't sure whether if she does say something, what she says will not be interpreted as PMS, or the estrogen talking and simply dismissed as nagging by her partner. Many women just don't want to make waves if they aren't prepared to leave. The leaving doesn't usually happen out of nowhere, although it may seem to. Also, women and men leave marriages and long-term relationships for different reasons. For example, women will put up with infidelity, horrible intimate relations, even alcoholism before they will leave, if they have children. That applies to other problems as well, if they think their partner doesn't listen to them. Even a bad marriage may seem better than deciding to raise kids on your own. So, they stay. Their men will actually believe that their wives don't know about long-term infidelity just because they haven't told them. Believe me, women ALWAYS know about cheating eventually. They just choose, for whatever reason, to put up with it. Bad sex by itself is not the cause of a marriage deteriorating. It's more often a symptom of a general lack of communication. Women usually don't want to totally shatter whatever calmness is in their marriage either. So, quite often women will only leave a bad marriage after years, sometimes decades of burying their own unhappiness until they can actually survive on their own. It's not always the snap decision that it may seem, but one that has been coming for many years. Just because there are no fights doesn't mean that everything is fine. To be sure, just hoping for change is not the same thing as actively trying to air out her problems with the relationship. But, there are many men who just tune their partner out when she attempts to talk to them about feelings and her partner takes from that that her guy isn't interested in really talking to her. This festers over several years of a marriage that is dying. Many men don't talk to their partners except about their work, or the kids, or the household workings. THEY DON'T LISTEN to subtle undercurrents and so the breakup, when it comes, is a total surprise to them. The sudden end to a long-term relationship is a shock that cannot be healed by simply seeking out another partner to fill the void. Take time for reflection. Don't look for a replacement until you know that you are not choosing someone exactly the same as the one who left you. I have friends who have married the same kind of person over and over, with the same results over and over. Being on your own is not the worst thing that can happen to you. Great post, Patty. Also very scary for me, becuase I don't disucss much with my wife. We act more like roommates than soulmates most of the time, but our marriage has also lasted 19 years (plus lived together two years before that.) Who knows how it will all end. I side with Joe's comments. I am virtually helpless to control life. I can control the little things, but as you age, you realize how helpless we really are. Well, I'll see your nineteen years and raise you thirty. I guess the thing is to talk to your partner. If there are problems, do something about them. Short term pain for long term gain. Don't let things slide just because your partner has given up on trying to talk to you about what may seem trivial to you. If you have a history of dismissing their concerns, if they express them, they just won't try anymore. My ex would just walk away, thinking that not talking about whatever was bothering me would make it go away by itself. We never fought about anything, ever. But, we never seemed to be on the same page. Now that we have our own lives, we are good friends. We talk now. In fact, I actually went back to him briefly, thinking that things would be different. My being there in the former role brought back the same situation. So, almost right away I knew that I had made the right decision by leaving. My ex is a good guy, or I wouldn't have married him in the first place. But he has a problem with facing personal problems, so just ignores them. Don't do that. You can't fix problems if you don't admit they are there.

I don't think that it's a matter of women brewing for years and then just suddenly giving their partner the boot. Quite often the woman puts up with an untenable, to her, situation, hoping that it will change for the better. Of course she should say what's bothering her. Many times she isn't sure whether if she does say something, what she says will not be interpreted as PMS, or the estrogen talking and simply dismissed as nagging by her partner. Many women just don't want to make waves if they aren't prepared to leave. The leaving doesn't usually happen out of nowhere, although it may seem to. Also, women and men leave marriages and long-term relationships for different reasons. For example, women will put up with infidelity, horrible intimate relations, even alcoholism before they will leave, if they have children. That applies to other problems as well, if they think their partner doesn't listen to them. Even a bad marriage may seem better than deciding to raise kids on your own. So, they stay. Their men will actually believe that their wives don't know about long-term infidelity just because they haven't told them. Believe me, women ALWAYS know about cheating eventually. They just choose, for whatever reason, to put up with it. Bad sex by itself is not the cause of a marriage deteriorating. It's more often a symptom of a general lack of communication. Women usually don't want to totally shatter whatever calmness is in their marriage either. So, quite often women will only leave a bad marriage after years, sometimes decades of burying their own unhappiness until they can actually survive on their own. It's not always the snap decision that it may seem, but one that has been coming for many years. Just because there are no fights doesn't mean that everything is fine. To be sure, just hoping for change is not the same thing as actively trying to air out her problems with the relationship. But, there are many men who just tune their partner out when she attempts to talk to them about feelings and her partner takes from that that her guy isn't interested in really talking to her. This festers over several years of a marriage that is dying. Many men don't talk to their partners except about their work, or the kids, or the household workings. THEY DON'T LISTEN to subtle undercurrents and so the breakup, when it comes, is a total surprise to them. The sudden end to a long-term relationship is a shock that cannot be healed by simply seeking out another partner to fill the void. Take time for reflection. Don't look for a replacement until you know that you are not choosing someone exactly the same as the one who left you. I have friends who have married the same kind of person over and over, with the same results over and over. Being on your own is not the worst thing that can happen to you. Great post, Patty. Also very scary for me, becuase I don't disucss much with my wife. We act more like roommates than soulmates most of the time, but our marriage has also lasted 19 years (plus lived together two years before that.) Who knows how it will all end. I side with Joe's comments. I am virtually helpless to control life. I can control the little things, but as you age, you realize how helpless we really are.

Doug Skeeter Patty