connoisseur series500 Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 Each of these sessions were given AMG's death notice of a mere 3 stars. I'm sure everyone can dig up countless other examples, but staying within my general love of the hard bop era, I've selected ten examples to vote on. The lone exception is Hank Mobley's "Reach out," which was given a paltry 2-star rating. So the question is: which of these examples do you feel was unjustly given a low rating? Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 I agree with the AMG that many of these dates don't generate the excitement they could, allthough I think some of the ratings are a little too low. I voted for 'Street of Dreams' which in my opinion really has a vibe to it. I wonder what the reviewer means with that it's "yet another underrated Green session". That he himself underrates it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 someone NEEDS to reaccess those Patton sessions on AMG. Maybe when they were being written, it wasn't clear as to what role in history Big John would play so to speak. Now that several years have gone by since those sessions have been re-released on CD, most consider many of those classic sessions. regardless, someone with EARS should review these again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted May 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 I wonder what the reviewer means with that it's "yet another underrated Green session". That he himself underrates it? Typical AMG irrationality. I haven't voted yet. It's a tough choice since obviously in compiling the list, I feel they are all underrated. I do believe one of the choices will overwhelmingly win the poll. Let's see if it proves true. Will reveal it later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted May 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 someone NEEDS to reaccess those Patton sessions on AMG. Maybe when they were being written, it wasn't clear as to what role in history Big John would play so to speak. Now that several years have gone by since those sessions have been re-released on CD, most consider many of those classic sessions. regardless, someone with EARS should review these again. BINGO!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tapscott Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 I was torn between Smokestack and Rumproller, but voted for the latter. This is a session which I really enjoy, and is nearly the equal of Sidewinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 I dunno. I think all of those sessions are middling. I would agree with a three star rating for all of them (and especially the two star rating on "Reach Out" which is a very disappointing album). Patton was pretty good ("Let 'em Roll" is my favorite) but most of his stuff pales next to Jimmy Smith or Larry Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 Put me down as one of those who feel three stars is the right grade. None of the titles excites me in any manner, and they are not the first ones I reach for when I have some free listening time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted May 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 Put me down as one of those who feel three stars is the right grade. None of the titles excites me in any manner, and they are not the first ones I reach for when I have some free listening time. Obviously, I don't agree. Have you heard the Kenny Dorham session? My vote went for Grant Green, STREET OF DREAMS as representing the gravest injustice. To me, it is five stars. The Hubbard session is as good as any of his others in my opinion. And how does AMG grant Big John's BLUE JOHN as 5 stars when all his stuff from 1978-1981 gets 3 stars at best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed S Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 As for the AMG ratings in general, from the AMG website: Our experts use a 1 to 5 star system with 5 being considered the best rating. It is important to note that our album ratings are localized; we only compare a release to other releases by the same artist. Thus, it is possible for a generally unappreciated Grant Green album to get a three, since that title is only being compared to other Grant Green titles. It also explains how some Kenny G records get a 4.5 star rating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 Worth mentioning that "West 42nd Street" should never be considered a Kenny Dorham album in the same way that "Blue Spring" or "Trompeta Toccata" or "Whistle Stop" are, since it was NOT his record date. This was originally issued as "Ease It" by the leader of the date, saxophonist Rocky Boyd. Muse and then Black Lion deceptively marketed this under Dorham's name. It would be just as wrong to consider "Hard Driving Jazz" as a Dorham album - even though that Cecil Taylor date has been misfiled under Coltrane. It's just a matter of whose name is bigger (and whether anyone will bother to put up a legal fight). Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 First of all, isn't a three star rating pretty good? It seems to be the default rating they use, and I often suspect that it is indeed a default and not an actually rated record. But three stars is nothing to sneeze at, so I guess the point of this exercise is that these LPs are *that* much better than 3 stars? I generally don't agree, though, amongst these, I would probably agree that Street of Dreams is a bit better than 3 stars. But I think a better poll would select two star recordings since those are plainly "fair" ratings. As to the Big John Patton reviews, did you pull these from the online reviews or perhaps an earlier print edition? I ask because I went into this with "Jazzypaul" at AAJ and pointed out that early editions of AAJ had Yanow reviewing darn near everything and its fairly clear that he's not a big fan of most late 1960s-1970 era organ dates. However, since then, they have seemingly tried to reassign these records to reviewers who have a far greater appreciation for that era's groove music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted May 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 First of all, isn't a three star rating pretty good? It seems to be the default rating they use, and I often suspect that it is indeed a default and not an actually rated record. But three stars is nothing to sneeze at, so I guess the point of this exercise is that these LPs are *that* much better than 3 stars? I generally don't agree, though, amongst these, I would probably agree that Street of Dreams is a bit better than 3 stars. But I think a better poll would select two star recordings since those are plainly "fair" ratings. As to the Big John Patton reviews, did you pull these from the online reviews or perhaps an earlier print edition? I pulled them from AMG online site. I agree with you that the poll would have been more interesting if I could have found a bunch of 2 stars, but frankly I couldn't find enough of them. So AMG can be wrong with their ratings but they are rarely RIDICULOUSLY wrong. Yes, I am quibbling a bit over their 3 star ratings. I believe that all these sessions should be at least 4 stars, and in the case of Green and perhaps the Dorham and Hill session, 5 stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davef Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 Had to go with Grant Green Street of Dreams, as I once wrote a counter-review that was never published... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 I hope we all know what we're talking about here. In the AMG universe, the stars are compared against the artist's other output, not against other artists, although most of probably do use it in that manner. Secondly, three stars means that they're worthwhile but contain some flaws. Four stars, the release is very good, easily recommended and a worthy addition to one jazz's collection. There it is although I don't agree with the assessment for Street of Dreams. Similarly, Talking About rates only 3 as well and I think they're very good and a "worthy" addition to my Grant Green cds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 Patton was pretty good ("Let 'em Roll" is my favorite) but most of his stuff pales next to Jimmy Smith or Larry Young. This is a problem that hangs people up on Patton (and others) quite a bit. I think it has to do more with the instrument than Patton's stature on it. For instance, if your argument holds Alexander, then the only saxophinists that deserve 4 or 5 star attention would be Lester Young, Bean, Parker and Coltrane. Face it, no other saxophonists were as groundbreaking or as important as these. Sure Joe Henderson was good, but he was no Coltrane...therefore no Joe Henderson record is worthy of more than 3 stars. We know this isn't the case at all, Joe is a 5 star player for sure. The problem is that there are so few organists of note at all. To my mind, when you reach a level of individuality, technical ability and imagination such as Patton did, you deserve to get your due. To slight Patton because he wasn't Jimmy Smith or Larry Young isn't keeping things in perspective IMHO. Patton's playing incompassed Smith's earthiness and Young's otherworldliness at the same time (especially from "A Certain Feeling" on.) How could you dismiss such a fantastic player who could hang with Lou Donaldson, Grachan Moncur III, Grant Green AND Sun Ra??!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted May 24, 2003 Report Share Posted May 24, 2003 Oh, and let's not forget that when Patton's Mosaic Select comes out, it will certainly get a 5 star review from AMG as all Mosaics do. Shows you a little about their crediblity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted May 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2003 Patton was pretty good ("Let 'em Roll" is my favorite) but most of his stuff pales next to Jimmy Smith or Larry Young. This is a problem that hangs people up on Patton (and others) quite a bit. I think it has to do more with the instrument than Patton's stature on it. For instance, if your argument holds Alexander, then the only saxophinists that deserve 4 or 5 star attention would be Lester Young, Bean, Parker and Coltrane. Face it, no other saxophonists were as groundbreaking or as important as these. Sure Joe Henderson was good, but he was no Coltrane...therefore no Joe Henderson record is worthy of more than 3 stars. We know this isn't the case at all, Joe is a 5 star player for sure. The problem is that there are so few organists of note at all. To my mind, when you reach a level of individuality, technical ability and imagination such as Patton did, you deserve to get your due. To slight Patton because he wasn't Jimmy Smith or Larry Young isn't keeping things in perspective IMHO. Patton's playing incompassed Smith's earthiness and Young's otherworldliness at the same time (especially from "A Certain Feeling" on.) How could you dismiss such a fantastic player who could hang with Lou Donaldson, Grachan Moncur III, Grant Green AND Sun Ra??!!!! Well said, SS. I agree all the way. Also, in response to another post: yes, I am aware of AMG's rating policies, and it does not change my opinion that all the sessions given in this poll are underserved by a 3 star rating. Why is Patton's BLUE JOHN given 5 stars while WAY I FEEL, MEMPHIS TO NY SPIRIT, ACCENT ON THE BLUES, BOOGALOO, THAT CERTAIN FEELING are all given 3 stars? Doesn't make sense. BLUE JOHN is okay to me if you can stand that instrument George Braith plays. It's got a good groove, but is certainly no better, and in fact probably inferior than the others given only 3 stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted May 25, 2003 Report Share Posted May 25, 2003 In addition to the stars being used for comparison among a single artist's work, it seems quite apparent that either a) most AMG reviewers suffer from some form of schizophrenia, or B) the write-ups and the "starring" are done by different people. I'm too darned lazy to research this, but I'm sure I've seen discs that were written off, then given mucho stars alongside ones that were praised highly but shorted in the star rating. That said, I voted for Lee's Rumproller. As far as I'm concerned, of his "normal" discs (?!) this is the best. Overall, I prefer it to Cornbread and definitely to Sidewinder. On the other hand, I'll take The Procrastinator, Search for the New Land, and the live 3CD set over any of them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonym Posted May 25, 2003 Report Share Posted May 25, 2003 I've just voted 'Street of Dreams' although im not familiar with a couple of titles on the list. The Green session is at least 3 1/2 or 4 in my book purely by virtue of the way the sidemen play. What does strike me about AMG though, is that sometimes you get te impression that the albums haven't even been listened to. My first experience of this was when i was compiling an Excel spread of my collection and when i reached Stan Getz i was surprised to find that 'Nobody Else But Me' not only had no review, but they had given it 2 stars. I am aware that all reviews are subjective --- but if it's the case that marks are given according to the other titles by that artist then this instance seems illogical to me. Oh well, at least we have the Penguin Guide to redress the balance.... cheers, tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted May 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2003 Looks like STREET OF DREAMS was the big winner finishing ahead of SMOKESTACK. I find this very interesting at it was my choice as well, and I was wondering if I was one of the few who actually feel this was a great session. For the record, I thought that the "entire Patton discography" would win hands down. I've got to work on my next poll now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Lee Morgan - The rumproller It was my first exposure, years ago, to LEE MORGAN. I still spin it frequently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Lee Morgan's 'The Rajah' is a five star in my view but it always seems to get lukewarm reviews. Worth buying for the tasty rendition of 'Is That So' alone ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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