Ashlee Simpson on SNL

[ejp626]

I saw her follow-up explanation on a morning show on NBC, and it was more of the same. It was her dad's idea, she was sick, she's never sang to a backing track before, it was still the drummer's fault. I find her inability to just shut up and accept some deserved criticism is what is so upsetting. It's hard to hold her personally responsible for a culture that celebrates talentless young women (and her benefitting from it by going on SNL), but she certainly is a symbol of what is wrong with the music/entertainment industry. So of course I am glad that she was shown to be a hack. It's one of those few moments when the curtain slips. It didn't take long for celebrities like Carson Daly to start circling the wagons around her, but it doesn't change the fact that we know she's a hack.

[DTMX]

Elvis Costello and the Attractions got kicked off BBC tv

Does anyone (besides me) remember when they were on SNL? They were playing, well, I don't remember what, but in the middle of the performance Elvis stopped the band and launched into a different number, a blazing version of "Radio Radio."

I'll never forget it, because it got me totally hooked on his music.

The song they were playing on SNL was "Less Than Zero" which dealt with a British politician (Oswald Mosley). Here in the States we would think "Mr. Oswald" was Lee Harvey or something so the song doesn't really mean anything on this side of the pond. That's why EC said something like "I'm sorry - there's no reason for us to play this song" and then jumped into "Radio, Radio". At the time, "Less Than Zero" was their current hit in Britain so that's probably why they chose it in the first place.

On the two disc re-release of "My Aim Is True" there's a live version called "Less Than Zero (Dallas Version)" recorded in Dallas Texas (natch), and the lyrics are changed to reference the Kennedy assassination. Clever boy, that Elvis.

[RainyDay]

The word, c**t, used to describe this silly little no talent is extremely offensive and for me is as disgusting as someone referring to a black no talent with the n-word. This is America and we have the First Amendment so you are free to say whatever you like. I'm free not to like it and to say so.

This girl is being exploited and yet she bears the brunt of everyone's outrage. If this young lady had betrayed her country, or been responsible for the deaths of thousands of people, I might be able to at least understand the anger behind it. She lip synched, so does Madonna, despite her denials, so does Janet Jackson, so do most pop singers. Ashlee is not the first no talent singer to make a bunch of money for herself and the folks who orchestrated her career for an inability to sing.

Jim: The issue is that it is a disgusting term and perhaps you would have a giggle if someone called your daughter, wife, mother, sister, or another female close to you this awful term. You don't get why I'm pissed, fine. But to say you don't normally use this language but you just can't restrain yourself from using it anyway is disingenious.

This is nice, O is down for a week and I get to come back to this nonsense.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Regardless of her show, regardless of any studio trickery, her CD is not that bad. I have no problem with making fun of the girl for this screw up, which, BTW, was the drummer's screw up. But to leap from a small mistake to "talentless young women" or to the extreme, "no-talent media-whore". That's just totally uncalled for here.

Believe me people, I hear all kinds of stuff that gets called "music" by my daughters and Ashlee Simpson's "Autobiography" is one of the few that I don't get up and shut off. It's a hell of a lot better than Eminem or Simple Plan or (shudder) Justin Timberlake or Backstreet Boys or (God No!) Hansen or countless others that get blared non-stop. The thing that grates on me the most is that the radio stations seem to loop the latest crap about every hour. It's so annoying.

On the bright side, my youngest just loves Herbie Hancock's "Head Hunters".

Later,

Kevin

[bertrand]

I got my four-year old hooked on Woody Shaw and the Jefferson Airplane B-)

Bertrand.

Edited October 29, 2004 by bertrand

[Chrome]

This girl is being exploited

I agree with you about the language, but not about this ... at this stage in the music game, Simpson (or maybe her family) has to take responsibility for turning herself into a "pop star."

[Jim Alfredson]

This is nice, O is down for a week and I get to come back to this nonsense.

Hey, we were down since Monday morning until last night at about 12:00am so that's only about 4 days, not a week!

Rainy, with all due respect, you don't have "come back to this nonsense". Just don't click on this topic!

[JSngry]

The word, c**t, used to describe this silly little no talent is extremely offensive and for me is as disgusting as someone referring to a black no talent with the n-word.

Well, that's working on the assumption that quality of character is every bit as as involuntary as ethnicity, but, ok...

Is it a gender-specific insult? Hell yeah it is, But it's most assuredly an insult about that person's character, not thier sex.

There's "male equivalents", btw...

[JSngry]

This girl is being exploited and yet she bears the brunt of everyone's outrage.

Yeah, I'm sure she's in the bizness totally against her will and is playing along just to put food on her family's table. I'm sure that she doesn't want to be a star, that she'd just as soon be in college studying to be a veteranarian, or spending her time doing relief work in the Third World, but she's got no other choices in life.

Poor thing.

[BruceH]

Elvis Costello and the Attractions got kicked off BBC tv

Does anyone (besides me) remember when they were on SNL? They were playing, well, I don't remember what, but in the middle of the performance Elvis stopped the band and launched into a different number, a blazing version of "Radio Radio."

I'll never forget it, because it got me totally hooked on his music.

The song they were playing on SNL was "Less Than Zero" which dealt with a British politician (Oswald Mosley). Here in the States we would think "Mr. Oswald" was Lee Harvey or something so the song doesn't really mean anything on this side of the pond. That's why EC said something like "I'm sorry - there's no reason for us to play this song" and then jumped into "Radio, Radio". At the time, "Less Than Zero" was their current hit in Britain so that's probably why they chose it in the first place.

I remember that; it was so cool. One of those few and far between great television moments. I heard it got him banned from SNL for a while. (Not that he seemed to care at all.)

[JSngry]

Jim: The issue is that it is a disgusting term and perhaps you would have a giggle if someone called your daughter, wife, mother, sister, or another female close to you this awful term.

My mother, although having a temper to be on the lookout for in her younger days, has never, to by knowledge, behaved in anything even remorely resembling cuntness.

My wife is a strong, intellegent woman who has worked in management, often surrounded by faux alpha-male types. I'm sure she's been called a cunt begore, at least behind her back. She's a big girl, a smart cookie, and a tough customer. She don't let the cocksuckers get her down. And I'm proud that she's got the qualities that cause such pseudo-"men" to react in such a way.

My daughter is 14, and has the intelligence and stubborness of her mother and father combined, which is to say that if she's yet to be called a cunt, it's just a matter of time. I only hope that it will be for something more noble than blaming the band for something that was not their fault (and I'm not buying the "it's the drummer who starts the tapes" thing. In my experience, such things are usually handled from the control room, sound board, or from a computer backstage, NOT by somebody who's already occupied doing something else. NBC's explanation by way of a "computer glitch", ie - somebody offstage pushed the wrong button or prepped the wrong track that the drummer might have then cued, or even triggered, seems the most logical to me). We'll both be there for her when it happens, and we'll prop her up and tell her to be careful not to step on the midgets when she gets back on the field. If it's not for something noble, well, she's going hear that you clean up your own backyard before you worry about somebody else's.

Now as for my sister, well, your gues is as good as mine. But seeing as how the girl's a living C&W song (in more than just a few ways...) all I can say is...nothing. Except that I love her in spite of herself.

[JSngry]

You don't get why I'm pissed, fine.

Oh, I get it. I respectfully disagree, but I get it.

Now, do you get why I'm pissed?

[RDK]

By all acounts, it was the drummer who started the wrong tape/sync track...

Does this surprise you, Jim? Didn't you see that long thread on drummer jokes?

[Jim Alfredson]

They don't use tape anymore, folks! That's so 1980!

If it was the drummer, he probably forgot to load up the next tune on his laptop or something. I'm still of the belief that they (the band) did it on purpose.

[RainyDay]

This is nice, O is down for a week and I get to come back to this nonsense.

Hey, we were down since Monday morning until last night at about 12:00am so that's only about 4 days, not a week!

Rainy, with all due respect, you don't have "come back to this nonsense". Just don't click on this topic!

Fine.

[JSngry]

But to say you don't normally use this language but you just can't restrain yourself from using it anyway is disingenious.

You got it half-right. I did say that I don't normally use that type of language, and I don't. But I NEVER said that I couldn't restrain myself. Quite to the contrary, I could have if I had wanted to. But I didn't want to. And I don't want to, not in this instance. But I'm a sensitive-if-rough-around-the-edges kind of guy, so let me refine the comment:

The actions of Ms. Simpson in this entire affair were that of a fucking no-talent media-whore cunt. Whether or not she actually is a fucking no-talent media-whore cunt is something that I, not knowing her even slightly, am not qualified to make. But if she is in fact a fucking no-talent media-whore cunt, then I stand by my original comment:

Fuck you, you fucking no-talent media-whore cunt.

But if I'm wrong, hey, fuck ME, you (have at it here, ok?)

Enjoy!)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JSngry]

They don't use tape anymore, folks! That's so 1980!

If it was the drummer, he probably forgot to load up the next tune on his laptop or something. I'm still of the belief that they (the band) did it on purpose.

If that's the case, that it was an intentional sabotage, then the responsible party/parties DO need to have their sorry punk-ass media-whore rock star wannabe cocksucking asses fired ASAP. If you hate the gig, don't do it. If you do it, DO it. No excuses. But I'm still not convinced that it wasn't a non-onstage glitch. This stuff is SO tightly controlled that to leave something like that, a two non-consecutive song gig on national TV, in the hands of the "talent" seems to be unnecessarily tempting fate.

Nevertheless, Ms. Simpson displayed a totally "me first" attitude in apparently not even contemplating deflecting the blame that does nothing to disabuse me of the notion that she is in fact a no-talent media whore you-know-what. You wanna know why "chick singers" are the brunt of so many jokes (surprisingly enough, not all of them kind!), well, here's a good example. Obliviousness to any and everything other than your own little world (which, btw, revolves entirely around yourself) is not exactly a trait that endears you to your co-workers...

[Rooster_Ties]

Jeez. Can this topic go any farther off the rails???

Personally, I think the use of the term "cunt" is pretty much out of line, in almost every case it's used. OK, maybe not 100% of the time, but damn near 100%.

And in any kind of public forum like this (and especially one where "the babe" thread went bye-bye), then I clearly think the use of the term here in inappropriate.

Now Jim (Sangry) thinks otherwise -- and I can respect that (cuz god knows I respect and value his opinion in just about a million other instances). But I don't happen to agree with it in this case, and I feel fairly strongly about it too. (For whatever little that's worth.)

Lard knows his topic doesn't need any more chum in the water, so let's not stir things up any more than we have to, OK???

[Jim Alfredson]

Ok now we need Alexander to stop by and tell us all we're silly because words are just symbols and we shouldn't get upset by them.

Waiting...

[JSngry]

Ok, she's a no-talent media-whore CAN'T!

Everybody happy now?

[AfricaBrass]

They don't use tape anymore, folks! That's so 1980!

If it was the drummer, he probably forgot to load up the next tune on his laptop or something. I'm still of the belief that they (the band) did it on purpose.

It's always the drummer...

If he did it on purpose... I agree with Jim S that he would need to be fired, but I THANK him for exposing this FRAUD for what it is. It's really sad that we live in a day that lip-syncing is acceptable.

But... if you're listening to performers who lip sync, in the first place, you deserve what you get...

Oh... my acid reflux is acting up... gotta go.

[Big Al]

Ok now we need Alexander to stop by and tell us all we're silly because words are just symbols and we shouldn't get upset by them.

Waiting...

What's the KJV word for..... well, you know......

Edited October 29, 2004 by Big Al

[Alexander]

Ok now we need Alexander to stop by and tell us all we're silly because words are just symbols and we shouldn't get upset by them.

Waiting...

Letters are just symbols. Words are a different animal completely. I recently taught a class on semiotics, and we went over all of the sign, signifier, and signified stuff. Noam Chomsky has made the argument that our brains are hard-wired for language, whatever form it may take. Here are some basic definitions:

Icon:

Charles Sanders Peirce's term for a sign that functions by means of sharing resemblances with what it signifies. Portraits or maps, for example, are natural resemblances rather than arbitrary and conventional signs. (See also Semiotics.)

Symbol / symbolization:

A term used by Charles Sanders Peirce to describe the sign proper, wherein the relation between signifier and signified is entirely arbitrary and conventional. Unlike the icon, the symbol bears no natural resemblance to what it signifies, and unlike the index, it has no causal connection with what it signifies. A map of a country is iconic, smoke as the sign of fire is indexical, but the word "map" and the word "smoke" are symbolic. The two words signify because a language user can differentiate them acoustically and conceptually from, say, "mop" and "stoke." Such differentiations are arbitrary and conventional. (See also Semiotics.)

Note the use of the term "arbitrary and conventional." Such is the nature of sign and symbol. There is no reason that we call an apple and apple. That just happens to be the word we use to describe that concept of "apple." Plato believed that everything - both words and objects - were merely imperfect forms of an ideal form that existed on some other plane of existence. Ancient Hebrews believed, literally, in a connection between language and life. In the legend of the Golem, it was believed that the Golem (a humanoid creature made of clay and animated by a Rabbi) could be brought to life by writing the letters alph, mem, and tov - spelling "emet" (which means "truth")- either directly onto the creature's brow or on a scroll that would be inserted into the creature's mouth. The Golem had to be deactivated on the sabbath, so the Rabbi would erase the first letter, alph, leaving mem and tov spelling "met" which means "death." Moreover, the Hebrew characters were believed to be the very building blocks of creation. Some Jewish scholars claimed to have cracked the code of creation by arranging the Hebrew letters in their "original" order (from which they had been allegedly scrambled) and creating their own universes, which they called "tabernacles."

All of this simply points out that human beings have some pretty wild ideas about the power of words. Semiotics teaches us that all language is a collection of random sounds and images that have been arranged by our brains in a manner upon which we all agree. But that's just on a very basic level. If words have meaning only because human beings agree, the waters become murkier still when you have a disconnect on the cultural significance of a word such as "cunt." As a word, "cunt" is simply a slang term for female genetalia. It can also act as a general term for a woman one doesn't like ("she's a cunt") just like male genetalia is used to describe men one doesn't like ("he's a dick"). It's a crude word. Jim's use of "cunt" was meant to be a harmless poke at a woman we all agree is talentless. But RD's interpretation of that word was something quite different. "Cunt," you see, is a word that has become weighted with cultural significance. It has become associated with sexism the same way the word "nigger" is associated with racism or "faggot" with homophobia.

Should Jim avoid the use of the word "cunt?" No more than I should avoid posting pictures of crosses dipped in urine. It comes down to accepting the consequences of ones actions. If Jim is willing to accept that RD is going to be offended by the use of the word "cunt," then I see no reason for him to stop using it (other than - you know - in order to be nice). In short, I understand both sides of the debate. Jim is right - "cunt" is just a word - and RD is also right - "cunt" is a term that some people find offensive. When it all comes down to dust, no matter who is right, Ashlee Simpson still can't sing.

[Jim Alfredson]

And that, as they say, is that.

[JSngry]

It can also act as a general term for a woman one doesn't like ("she's a cunt") just like male genetalia is used to describe men one doesn't like ("he's a dick"). It's a crude word.

=======================================

Jim's use of "cunt" was meant to be a harmless poke at a woman we all agree is talentless.  But RD's interpretation of that word was something quite different.  "Cunt," you see, is a word that has become weighted with cultural significance.  It has become associated with sexism the same way the word "nigger" is associated with racism or "faggot" with homophobia.

Well, there you have something. I was raised to respect women (and even some men, believe it or not...), and hit adolescence smack dab in the first full flower of the feminist revolution. It all made sense to me, so hey, no big whoop. "C**t" was always used in the way you describe, as the feminie equivalent of "dick", to describe somebody of extremely low, self-centered, and totally unethical character. Nothing more. And, frankly, those words were used liberally by both genders about both genders. When everybody's on the same page, so to speak, there's a common language with a common meaning. Maybe Denton was tougher than Oakland, but I rather seriously doubt it.

Now, when the word became a slur at the level of those other two you mention, I don't know. But those words have always (in my lifetime, anyway) had deeper power and darker meaning (one moreso than the other, but still...). Seems to me that willfully surrendering a once crude-but-serviceable word that simply was a description of individual character to a darker meaning that casts fundamental aspersions on an entire gender is an act of anti-liberation. But what do I know? Choices have been made, though, it seems. Whether they're prudent or not is another matter...

Using the word as I meant it, I have no overiding compunction to apologize to anybody for the actual use of the word. So I won't. I will apologize for any inadvertant offense, though. Somewhat sincerely, even. But I stand by my sentiment, which I hope is perfectly clear. If it isn't, hey, parallel universes, baby...

No matter, though. In the future, I will refer to Ms. Simpson (when I refer to her at all, which I hope will occur with the frequency of my dog climbing a tree...) as the aforementioned "no-talent media-whore (and why is "whore" so widely accepted as a dig when c**t isn't? Have "we" decided to value genitalia more than the use to which they are put? Do basic raw tools matter more than final results? Something wierd about that...) can't".

Because, c**t or not, CAN'T just about sums her up for me.

Edited October 29, 2004 by JSngry