Albert Mangelsdorff dies

[John L]

Sad news indeed. RIP

[Aggie87]

Aggie, what label is the duo with Sco on - and what is the name of the release? I would definitely like to get a copy of that.

←

It was released on Tutu in 1990, and is titled "International Jazzfestival Münster". The performances are actually from 1988 though. Mangelsdorff and Scofield perform 3 tracks, for a total of about 30 minutes - "The Eternal Turn On", "Gray and Visceral", and "Alfie's Theme".

I can't find it on amazon or half.com, but it's still apparently available at Amazon Germany: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000...3396125-3726924

Not sure whether you want to pay that price and the shipping costs though.

edit - appears to be available through Cadence in the U.S., as well...

Edited July 26, 2005 by Aggie87

[slide_advantage_redoux]

Aggie, what label is the duo with Sco on - and what is the name of the release? I would definitely like to get a copy of that.

←

It was released on Tutu in 1990, and is titled "International Jazzfestival Münster". The performances are actually from 1988 though. Mangelsdorff and Scofield perform 3 tracks, for a total of about 30 minutes - "The Eternal Turn On", "Gray and Visceral", and "Alfie's Theme".

I can't find it on amazon or half.com, but it's still apparently available at Amazon Germany: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000...3396125-3726924

Not sure whether you want to pay that price and the shipping costs though.

edit - appears to be available through Cadence in the U.S., as well...

←

How is the Marty Cook/Jim Pepper set? I knew Marty from when I lived in Bavaria. He asked me to do a 2-bone and rhythm thing one night in Augsburg, but it fell through. He has that free bag going on, just don't ask him to read changes. (oops did I say that? sorry Marty!)

[Aggie87]

I haven't listened in a while, but recall it being good (forgot to grab the disc on the way out the door this a.m.) There are only two tracks by the Cook group on there, ~13 minutes. I wish this set had been two discs instead of one. It's effectively a sampler as it is, I guess.

Sidebar - there's also a nice Cook CD on Enja, featuring Pepper. It's called Nightwork. If you like Cook (and Pepper, who I've enjoyed quite a bit in my limited exposure to him) this one's worth checking out.

[Kalo]

Like most German musicians he was at first influenced by the cool jazz idiom of Lee Konitz and Lennie Tristano...

Interesting. I'm curious to know, Adam, if that is the standard German understanding of Mangelsdorff and others, or if that is the idiosyncratic interpretation of Wolfram Knauer, the writer of this piece? If Tristano and Konitz are that influential on German jazz, then I'd be curious to hear a lot more of it (not that I'm not already curious about German and European jazz in general).

←

I'd agree with the assessment. The Tristano school and "cool jazz" in general were the model for much early small group jazz in post war Europe. People like Mangelsdorff, Jutta Hipp, Roland Kovac, Hans Koller, Attila Zoller would fit in the picture. This was certainly not restricted to Germany, but more of a central European thing, I'd say.

←

Thanks for the answer, couw.

Another big influence on Albert not yet mentioned in these posts was bird calls. Albert used to carry a recorder out into fields and forests to record bird sounds in their habitat, then try and imitate these sounds on his trombone.

That influence is made obvious on his first (of three - solo albums, which was entitled "Trombirds". The cover (on the original MPS/BASF LP at least) has a photograph of a trombone festooned with feathers galore. One of his compositions on that record is entitled "Blues for a Cellar Lark" (cellar lark meaning a jazz musician; which makes sense since they spend most of their working hours underground - at least in many European clubs (his own "Jazz Keller" no exception)

Also most probably influenced by Olivier Messiaen's works based on bird songs, notably 'Catalogue d'Oiseaux' among other compositions. Messiaen taught at the famous Summer school in Darmstdat a number of years.

←

I like the Messiaen I've heard, especially "Catalogue d'Oiseaux." Trombirds sounds interesting. I can tell that there'll be more European Jazz in my future.

Thanks again, guys!

[rostasi]

Thanks for this info.

Found out yesterday while actually in Frankfurt

and there's a good size article in this morning's paper in Köln.

A great influential man who left us an incredible body of work!

Rod

[slide_advantage_redoux]

If someone were to ask me to pick the essential Mangelsdorff LPs (with him as a leader), these would be the ones I would choose (keep in mind that while I have a lot of his recordings, I don't have anything from the late 50's).

In no order of preference:

Now, Jazz Ramwong (pacific jazz 10095)

w/ Gunter Kronberg, Heinz Sauer, Gunter Lenz and Ralf Hubner

Tension (CBS) same group as above

Never Let it End (MPS) same as above

Live in Tokyo (enja 2006) same group as above (minus Kronberg)

"ZoKoMa" with Attila Zoller, and Lee Konitz

The Wide Point (MPS/BASF) w/ Elvin Jones and Palle Danielson

Tromboneliness (MPS/BASF) solo

Live in Montreaux (MPS 15572) w/ J.F. Jenny Clarke and Ronald Shannon Jackson

Tension, Never Let in End and Now Jazz Ramwong are smoking! Hard core european hard bop/post bop. Lots of Eastern themes, esp on Ramwong.

Those are just the ones I like the best. Everything he recorded had merit. There are no losers imho.

Edited July 27, 2005 by slide_advantage_redoux

[jazzscot]

I had "NEVER LET IT END" on LP many years ago, plus a few others.

Was it released worldwide on CD? I've checked but can't find it listed anywhere.

[slide_advantage_redoux]

I am thinking that they haven't released Never let in End on disc yet. I wish they would. I bought my vinyl copy on Ebay and it is well used. No skips, but considerable surface noise.

[couw]

I am thinking that they haven't released Never let in End on disc yet. I wish they would. I bought my vinyl copy on Ebay and it is well used. No skips, but considerable surface noise.

←

If I am not mistaking, there were two 2CD sets titled Three Originals Vol 1 and 2, each with 3 MPS albums on them. Don't have these myself either though.

EDIT: AMG tells me:

- Three Originals #1 : Wide Point/Trilogue/Albert Live in Montreux (MPS)

- Three Originals #2 : Never Let It End/Jazz Tune I Hope/Triple Entente (MPS)

Edited July 27, 2005 by couw

[Rosco]

If I am not mistaking, there were two 2CD sets titled Three Originals Vol 1 and 2, each with 3 MPS albums on them. Don't have these myself either though.

EDIT: AMG tells me:

- Three Originals #1 : Wide Point/Trilogue/Albert Live in Montreux (MPS)

- Three Originals #2 : Never Let It End/Jazz Tune I Hope/Triple Entente (MPS)

←

Yep, I have the second one with Never Let It End and A Jazz Tune I Hope, a smoking 1978 session with Elvin... good stuff. (By coincidence, I was listening to these discs the morning I found out Albert had died)

These sets came out in 1995 (cat no. for the second one is MPS 529090-2); never came across the first one and I can't imagine they stayed around too long. Pity, these discs are great enough to convince me I need more Mangelsdorff in my collection.

[mikeweil]

I would add 1972' "Birds of Underground" on MPS to the above list, it is a representative recording of his working group of the time with Heinz Sauer and Gerd Dudek on reeds, Buschi Niebergall on bass and Peter Giger on drums - a facet of his work that may be least known to non-European fans.

As far as the Konitz/Tristano influence is concerned - of course Mangelsdorff acknowledged this, but also the influence of Charlie Parker et al.

I think it was the more intellectual appearance of the cool school that was more attractive at the time, as the hard bop school with it R & B tinge was harder to relate to for them - it was too close to the rock'n'roll craze of the time, and dance music and mass hysteria was the last thing German jazz musicians wanted to seriously deal with.

When that was over, there was no fear of contact anymore with rock grooves, as is shown by his collaborations with Jaco Pastorius, Al Mouzon and the like, or the United Jazz and Rock Ensemble or the Klaus Lage Band.

[mikeweil]

..... and here's something I posted a long time ago:

German top trombonist Albert Mangelsdorff's listing of 10 most important jazz musicians, published in the 1980 German expanded edition of "The Book of Lists" (US edtion in 1977 by William Morrow, New York):

1. Billie Holiday

2. Duke Ellington

3. Art Tatum

4. Charlie Parker

5. Lennie Tristano

6. Dizzy Gillespie

7. Sonny Rollins

8. John Coltrane

9. Eric Dolphy

10. Charles Mingus

[Free For All]

When I first heard him doing his multiphonics thing it totally blew me away. 3 and 4 note chords. Amazing!

Not to overlook his "normal" playing- great melodic structure, difficult angular lines, thoughtfully constructed solos covering the entire range of the instrument.

And through it all a great sense of humor. Some of the stuff he plays is so wacked it just cracks me up. I would have loved to have known him.

One of the very few major innovators on the instrument.

RIP

[jazzscot]

Any recommendations regarding these two titles?

ALBERT MANGELSDORFF - And His Friends -MPS (GERMANY) MPS 73752CD

also:

ALBERT MANGELSDORFF -LIVE IN TOKYO (Enja/Weber 2006)

Personnel:

*Albert Mangelsdorff, trombone

*Heinz Sauer, tenor saxophone

*Günther Lenz, bass

*Ralf Hübner, drums

Tracks:

Swing & Swing · Open Space · Mah#sale · Triple Trip

They both look "very interesting"

[slide_advantage_redoux]

Another big influence on Albert not yet mentioned in these posts was bird calls. Albert used to carry a recorder out into fields and forests to record bird sounds in their habitat, then try and imitate these sounds on his trombone.

That influence is made obvious on his first (of three - solo albums, which was entitled "Trombirds". The cover (on the original MPS/BASF LP at least) has a photograph of a trombone festooned with feathers galore. One of his compositions on that record is entitled "Blues for a Cellar Lark" (cellar lark meaning a jazz musician; which makes sense since they spend most of their working hours underground - at least in many European clubs (his own "Jazz Keller" no exception)

Also most probably influenced by Olivier Messiaen's works based on bird songs, notably 'Catalogue d'Oiseaux' among other compositions. Messiaen taught at the famous Summer school in Darmstdat a number of years.

←

[couw]

Any recommendations regarding these two titles?

ALBERT MANGELSDORFF - And His Friends -MPS (GERMANY) MPS 73752CD

also:

ALBERT MANGELSDORFF -LIVE IN TOKYO (Enja/Weber 2006)

Personnel:

*Albert Mangelsdorff, trombone 

*Heinz Sauer, tenor saxophone

*Günther Lenz, bass

*Ralf Hübner, drums

Tracks:

Swing & Swing · Open Space · Mah#sale · Triple Trip

They both look  "very interesting"

←

The Mangelsdorff and his Friends album features 6 duets with 6 different players: Don Cherry, Elvin Jones, Karl Berger (vib), Attila Zoller, Lee Konitz and Wolfgang Dauner. Indeed a very interesting album, but be prepared for some outward playing. Most of this is mid tempo stuff without a clear song structure but full of melodies developing and degrading.

Live in Tokyo features the quintet sans Kronberg. It has been a while since I spun the LP, I'll need to dig it out. I remember it as a pretty loose affair, at least when compared with Now Jazz Ramwong and (One) Tension. Of course it being live explains a lot in that respect, but there is also a departure towards freeer structures from the group dynamics that characterises NJR and (O)T. This live album is still song oriented with themes and players taking turns soloing though. Sauer is one of those intense screetchy players with very distinct tone and phrasing. Lenz is simply amazing.

If you get a chance, check out Now Jazz Ramwong by the quintet, an absolute classic.

Edited July 28, 2005 by couw

[Clunky]

Any recommendations regarding these two titles?

ALBERT MANGELSDORFF - And His Friends -MPS (GERMANY) MPS 73752CD

←

This is the only one I know, ironically I'd been enjoying it so much over recent weeks that I'd been scouring the web for other CDs by AM just before his death was announced. Recommended.

[slide_advantage_redoux]

Any recommendations regarding these two titles?

ALBERT MANGELSDORFF - And His Friends -MPS (GERMANY) MPS 73752CD

also:

ALBERT MANGELSDORFF -LIVE IN TOKYO (Enja/Weber 2006)

Personnel:

*Albert Mangelsdorff, trombone 

*Heinz Sauer, tenor saxophone

*Günther Lenz, bass

*Ralf Hübner, drums

Tracks:

Swing & Swing · Open Space · Mah#sale · Triple Trip

They both look  "very interesting"

←

The Mangelsdorff and his Friends album features 6 duets with 6 different players: Don Cherry, Elvin Jones, Karl Berger (vib), Attila Zoller, Lee Konitz and Wolfgang Dauner. Indeed a very interesting album, but be prepared for some outward playing. Most of this is mid tempo stuff without a clear song structure but full of melodies developing and degrading.

Live in Tokyo features the quintet sans Kronberg. It has been a while since I spun the LP, I'll need to dig it out. I remember it as a pretty loose affair, at least when compared with Now Jazz Ramwong and (One) Tension. Of course it being live explains a lot in that respect, but there is also a departure towards freeer structures from the group dynamics that characterises NJR and (O)T. This live album is still song oriented with themes and players taking turns soloing though. Sauer is one of those intense screetchy players with very distinct tone and phrasing. Lenz is simply amazing.

If you get a chance, check out Now Jazz Ramwong by the quintet, an absolute classic.

←

I am a big fan of the "pre-multiphonic" stage in Albert's career. Those quartet and quintet recordings are fantastic. After Albert started becoming known for his MP playing, somehow his basic trombone playing ability got overshadowed. Not in all circles mind you. But when you mention his name, it seems everyone comments on the MPs. This is understandable though.

But when it comes to the issue of chops, range, tone and technical prowess (in the traditional sense), Albert could stand next to any jazz trombone player; his chops and technical prowess was top shelf. He could flat out play trombone well.

His first role model for trombone playing was JJ....listening to Albert's clean technique and pure tone, it is easy to see. (and he played the JJ horn; the King 3B)

While admittedly he didn't swing in the conventional sense; he had his own thing going on.

Jazzscot, I wholeheartedly concur; Now Jazz Ramwong is most definitely a classic...on any continent! The tempos of those tunes were mad! (ie: "Set em up") Great tunes on the entire album.

Okay, even though its 3 in the effing morning, I am going to go play that record as soon as I finish this post!

Edited July 28, 2005 by slide_advantage_redoux

[couw]

Playing Live in Tokyo now and there are plenty polyphonics here. Side B features a long free and loose, slow to mid tempo piece. Pretty good stuff, but definitely nothing like the group dynamics and melodic developments of Ramwong.

[slide_advantage_redoux]

Couw

Do you have "Tension" on CBS (rec. '63 with same personnel as NJR) Pics are below.

On this earlier LP:

side one

Club Trois

Blues du Domicile

Set 'em up

side two

Varie

Tension

Ballade for Jessica Rose

As you see, four of the tunes also appear on NJR, but on this release, they stretch out (except for "Ballade...", which ironically is - to the second - the same length take as recorded on NJR!

I was lucky to land these early Albert sides. A friend from college and record collector decided he needed a car, and he asked me to liquidate a big part of his sides. The first thing I did was pull the ones I wanted, then I sold the others and made him happy. That was over 20 years ago. (I KNOW he regrets it now! The car is undoubtedly long gone)

Edited July 28, 2005 by slide_advantage_redoux

[couw]

Yes, have that one as well. Your mentioning NJR having tracks from (One) Tension must mean that you have that weird combination LP that was put out in the US. My NJR (both LP and CD) has this sequence:

- Now Jazz Ramwong (8:58)

- Sakura Waltz (3:24)

- Blue Fanfare (6:40)

- Three Jazz Moods (6:10)

- Burunkaka (3:26)

- Raknash (4:41)

- Theme from Vietnam (0:56)

- Es Sungen Drei Engel (7:33)

Interestingly, both these and the Live in Tokyo were released in Eastern Germany as well at the time.

Edited July 28, 2005 by couw

[couw]

As you see, four of the tunes also appear on NJR, but on this release, they stretch out (except for "Ballade...", which ironically is - to the second - the same length take as recorded on NJR!

←

so are these actually different takes or were some solos deleted from the original One Tension masters?

[Chuck Nessa]

As you see, four of the tunes also appear on NJR, but on this release, they stretch out (except for "Ballade...", which ironically is - to the second - the same length take as recorded on NJR!

←

so are these actually different takes or were some solos deleted from the original One Tension masters?

←

Back in the mid '60s Horst Lippmann, producer of the lps, told me the PJ was a combination of the 2 originals and Dick Bock did his usual scissors job on the tapes.

[couw]

Back in the mid '60s Horst Lippmann, producer of the lps, told me the PJ was a combination of the 2 originals and Dick Bock did his usual scissors job on the tapes.

←

Thanks, that explains then. As together they already make up for 42 minutes, I gather the Ramwong tracks were also edited?

A real shame to put this music out in incomplete form.