WORLD CUP 2006 / GERMANY

[kenny weir]

As the WC washup continues, allow to me make a few points:

1. I would like to thank all my friends here for being my main online outlet before, during and after the tournament.

2. After life-long interest in various team sports all over the place, for the first time ever - and despite my NZ-born enthusiasm for the All Blacks - I found out what it's like to be a true believer. Australia's games against Japan, Croatia and Italy, in particular, were excruciating, orgasmic and terrifying. I'll never be the same. Australia plays Kuwait at home on August 16 in the Asian Cup - it's already a sellout - and I can hardly wait!

3. After long being a proponent of radical change to fix some of the "problems" being discussed here, I have come to the personal conclusion that it's just as perfect as it needs to be, EXCEPT FOR ...

4. The diving/Academy Award/cheating/cynical gamesmanship aspects REALLY need to be addressed in a meaningful way.

5. South Africa,. anyone?

[ejp626]

This is what I love. Guys who have just decided to watch football becoming instant experts all of a sudden.

Now, if you don't like the sport, that's fine, but don't come on here and blast a sport which you don't know a lot about until you know a lot more.

This is what I love. Guys with a chip on their shoulder telling other people that only experts can post on a topic, sports-related or not. Might as well shut down the board under those conditions. I could point to plenty of EU-commentators (who've grown up with the game) who offer similar suggestions to improve football as the dumb Americans.

[birdanddizzy]

Zinédine Zidane will be on the French TV channel Canal+ tonight at 8 p.m. Paris time

[king ubu]

Another non-expert whose posts have so far been dutifully neglected/ignorated in this thread, luckily, dares to speak up...

How about starting games with penalties? Then, in case the game ends with a draw, the team who did better in the penalties wins - this would help doing something against the defensive way of playing, at least on the side of one team...

[J.A.W.]

FIFA just published a brand new ranking, based on the results of the last 4 years (instead of 8 years previously), including the World Cup 2006:

1. Brazil

2. Italy

3. Argentina

4. France

5. England

6. Netherlands

7. Spain

8. Portugal

9. Germany

10. Czech Republic

11. Nigeria

12. Cameroon

13. Switzerland

14. Uruguay

15. Ukraine

16. United States

17. Denmark

18. Mexico

19. Paraguay

20. Ivory Coast

21. Colombia

22. Sweden

23. Croatia

24. Guinea

25. Ghana

26. Rumania

27. Turkey

28. Ecuador

29. Egypt

30. Poland

Edited July 12, 2006 by J.A.W.

[Brad]

According to the BBC, Blatter has hinted that FIFA may take away the Golden Ball award from Zidane, depending on the results of the investigation.

[Brad]

Interesting column: Zizou's legacy snuffed out in 7 seconds

[Dave James]

Brad,

I think you're being a little hard on people. No one is trying to trash soccer here, we're just making some suggestions as to how it might be improved. I know I've intended my comments to be constructive. For example, the purpose of my observation vis a vis Zidane yesterday, which seemed to be roundly misinterpreted, was not to indict the sport itself, but only to point out that the old adage "sticks and stone can break my bones but names can never hurt me" never applied more than it did in a situation where he really did let names hurt him and, more importantly, his team.

To automatically assume that anyone who says anything negative about a sport you clearly love is clueless, isn't exactly the way to encourage meaningful discourse. Seems to me, at least in this country, getting anyone involved in any serious discussion about soccer can only be a good thing. Sure, many of us don't know the game like you do, but why should that matter? I guess I'm surprised you don't see it that way.

C'est la vie.

Up over and out.

[skeith]

You know the whole gripe about the stretcher is bogus. They stretcher them off to get them out of the way so the game can resume without them until they are ready to rejoin the action.

In the NFL if a guy goes down the game comes to halt, he limps off the field with the aide of 3 athletic trainers and it takes about 5 minutes. He then sits on the sideline for a possesion or two, a few commercial breaks, a few official timeouts not to mention the "regular" stopping of the clock, getting attention, icepacks, wraps, injections, whatever until he is ready to reenter if he can. And by the way, his team is allowed to replace him immediately.

While I'm at it, what's the gripe about not knowing when the game will end? With 2 minutes left on an NBA clock can you honestly tell me within 10 minutes how long that game will last? How about a baseball game? How long are those 9 innings going to take? Who cares?

If you don't care for soccer, fine. Don't watch it. Why feel the need to try to say a sport is inferior to another or a sport is stupid just because you don't understand it?

I don't know if the "you" that you mention in your post is always referring to me. I note for the record that you don't counter any of my comments about bloody faces, diving, and poor reffing as being part of the "beautiful game", so I take it you are admitting those points? Am I allowed to make any comments?

Hey, why do you assume I don't care for soccer, as I said I watched quite a few games, even taking some vacation time to watch them and I don't feel it is an inferior sport. I have attended several professional soccer games, though not in the US.

My point was that I think there are certain elements of the game that are not appealing to many Americans- the diving, the fouling, the inconsistent reffing.

And I take your point about the stretcher being used to quickly speed off a player, but hey once these guys get to the sideline they are miraculously hopping around. My point here is that in soccer many injuries seemed faked or at least overdramatized in a way that does not occur in the NFL and several European and South American soccer fans who were watching the World Cup with me did not disagree with that point.

Edited July 12, 2006 by skeith

[Dmitry]

Couple of intersting news bits this morning - both Klinsmann and Lippi have resigned as head coaches of their respective teams.

My feeling is that Klinsmann might be hired as the next manager for the US Team, being that he resides in California and speaks good English.

Please post the news articles regarding Zidane's interview on French tv tonight!!!!!!!!!!

[scottb]

You know the whole gripe about the stretcher is bogus. They stretcher them off to get them out of the way so the game can resume without them until they are ready to rejoin the action.

In the NFL if a guy goes down the game comes to halt, he limps off the field with the aide of 3 athletic trainers and it takes about 5 minutes. He then sits on the sideline for a possesion or two, a few commercial breaks, a few official timeouts not to mention the "regular" stopping of the clock, getting attention, icepacks, wraps, injections, whatever until he is ready to reenter if he can. And by the way, his team is allowed to replace him immediately.

While I'm at it, what's the gripe about not knowing when the game will end? With 2 minutes left on an NBA clock can you honestly tell me within 10 minutes how long that game will last? How about a baseball game? How long are those 9 innings going to take? Who cares?

If you don't care for soccer, fine. Don't watch it. Why feel the need to try to say a sport is inferior to another or a sport is stupid just because you don't understand it?

I don't know if the "you" that you mention in your post is always referring to me. I note for the record that you don't counter any of my comments about bloody faces, diving, and poor reffing as being part of the "beautiful game", so I take it you are admitting those points? Am I allowed to make any comments?

Hey, why do you assume I don't care for soccer, as I said I watched quite a few games, even taking some vacation time to watch them and I don't feel it is an inferior sport. I have attended several professional soccer games, though not in the US.

My point was that I think there are certain elements of the game that are not appealing to many Americans- the diving, the fouling, the inconsistent reffing.

And I take your point about the stretcher being used to quickly speed off a play, but hey once these guys get to the sideline they are miraculously hopping around. My point here is that in soccer many injuries seemed faked or at least overdramatized in a way that does not occur in the NFL and several European and South American soccer fans who were watching the World Cup with me did not disagree with that point.

My post wasn't directed toward you really. You hear these complaints all the time about soccer. Certainly, the diving and faking are too big a part of the game. Which is why I don't care the French and Italian leagues that much. The Premier League doesn't quite have as much diving except for the young master Ronaldo who is known for diving and is pretty much hated for it. The refs handle him pretty well though and sometimes allow legitimate fouls because he exaggerates them.

I was also very disappointed with the refs at the World Cup and thought they took a lot of enjoyment away. Again the refs in the Premier League do a much better job IMHO and even the MLS refs don't seem so bad after watching the World Cup. I guess my point is that although the World Cup should be soccer at its best, it surely wasn't this time around but let's not go trashing the whole thing over one event.

[scottb]

I think Kinsman has already said he would NOT be the manager for the USNT.

[ASNL77]

You know the whole gripe about the stretcher is bogus. They stretcher them off to get them out of the way so the game can resume without them until they are ready to rejoin the action.

In the NFL if a guy goes down the game comes to halt, he limps off the field with the aide of 3 athletic trainers and it takes about 5 minutes. He then sits on the sideline for a possesion or two, a few commercial breaks, a few official timeouts not to mention the "regular" stopping of the clock, getting attention, icepacks, wraps, injections, whatever until he is ready to reenter if he can. And by the way, his team is allowed to replace him immediately.

While I'm at it, what's the gripe about not knowing when the game will end? With 2 minutes left on an NBA clock can you honestly tell me within 10 minutes how long that game will last? How about a baseball game? How long are those 9 innings going to take? Who cares?

If you don't care for soccer, fine. Don't watch it. Why feel the need to try to say a sport is inferior to another or a sport is stupid just because you don't understand it?

I don't know if the "you" that you mention in your post is always referring to me. I note for the record that you don't counter any of my comments about bloody faces, diving, and poor reffing as being part of the "beautiful game", so I take it you are admitting those points? Am I allowed to make any comments?

Hey, why do you assume I don't care for soccer, as I said I watched quite a few games, even taking some vacation time to watch them and I don't feel it is an inferior sport. I have attended several professional soccer games, though not in the US.

My point was that I think there are certain elements of the game that are not appealing to many Americans- the diving, the fouling, the inconsistent reffing.

And I take your point about the stretcher being used to quickly speed off a play, but hey once these guys get to the sideline they are miraculously hopping around. My point here is that in soccer many injuries seemed faked or at least overdramatized in a way that does not occur in the NFL and several European and South American soccer fans who were watching the World Cup with me did not disagree with that point.

My post wasn't directed toward you really. You hear these complaints all the time about soccer. Certainly, the diving and faking are too big a part of the game. Which is why I don't care the French and Italian leagues that much. The Premier League doesn't quite have as much diving except for the young master Ronaldo who is known for diving and is pretty much hated for it. The refs handle him pretty well though and sometimes allow legitimate fouls because he exaggerates them.

I was also very disappointed with the refs at the World Cup and thought they took a lot of enjoyment away. Again the refs in the Premier League do a much better job IMHO and even the MLS refs don't seem so bad after watching the World Cup. I guess my point is that although the World Cup should be soccer at its best, it surely wasn't this time around but let's not go trashing the whole thing over one event.

The French league may noy be the most exciting league to watch but comparing it to the Italian league in terms of diving is inappropriate, I believe. Italy are world champions but they are also world champion when it comes to dive, cheat or fix games and no other league in Europe (apart from the Spanish League maybe) can compete! The English League used to be 'clean' but if you follow it very closely, you may have noticed that there is not a weekend without a polemic, bad refereeing, coaches complaining about a penalty etc.....

Don't forget that they are fewer and fewer British players in the Premier League. It has become as 'dirty' as the other European leagues. Look at the number of times Rooney uses the 'f...' word every weekend when talking to the ref or another player on the pitch for example

Edited July 12, 2006 by ASNL77

[scottb]

My other thought about the lack of diving in the EPL was that the players don't get a chance to dive because they are REALLY being fouled!

[ASNL77]

My other thought about the lack of diving in the EPL was that the players don't get a chance to dive because they are REALLY being fouled!

True!!

The funny thing with the EPL is that you dont seem to get booked unless you break the leg of your opponent! Then, the British players are always surprised when they get booked or red carded when they play on the European stage. They are used to get away with so much......

[J.A.W.]

Couple of intersting news bits this morning - both Klinsmann and Lippi have resigned as head coaches of their respective teams.

I posted the Klinsmann news earlier in this thread this morning, here...

[scottb]

My other thought about the lack of diving in the EPL was that the players don't get a chance to dive because they are REALLY being fouled!

True!!

The funny thing with the EPL is that you dont seem to get booked unless you break the leg of your opponent! Then, the British players are always surprised when they get booked or red carded when they play on the European stage. They are used to get away with so much......

You should see the MLS! I was watching some games after the World Cup and I kept expecting straight red cards for some of the challenges which went uncarded.

[Brad]

From the BBC:

Zidane makes apology for headbutt

Zidane reacted to Materazzi's insult by headbutting the defender. Zinedine Zidane has apologised for the headbutt on Italy's Marco Materazzi which earned him a red card in Sunday's World Cup final penalty shoot-out loss. But the France legend did not reveal what Materazzi said, only confirming that it was "very personal and concerned his mother and his sister".

In a French TV interview, Zidane, 34, said: "I want to ask for forgiveness from all the children who watched that.

"There was no excuse for it. I want to be open and honest about it."

Zidane was sent-off for the headbutt to Materazzi's chest in the second period of extra-time in Sunday's final in Berlin.

His words contradict Materazzi's take on the incident, in which the Italian admitted making an insulting remark to the midfielder, but denied he made reference to Zidane's mother.

Fifa is to investigate Zidane's sending off and the organisation's president Sepp Blatter has hinted that the France star could be stripped of his World Cup best player award.

More to follow.

[Jim R]

FIFA just published a brand new ranking, based on the results of the last 4 years (instead of 8 years previously), including the World Cup 2006:

...

16. United States

...

18. Mexico

They finally have seen the light, although after their respective performances in the WC, I know it seems like an odd time.

I've been thinking about Zidane a bit, and what I don't quite understand is... why has it taken this long for him to make a public statement? I would have thought that a forthright person who wants to clear the air and explain his position could easily have done it within 24 hours after the incident. 48 would have been plenty, it seems to me. The delay only makes it look like "planning" a statement is more important than honesty and directness. At any rate, I still admire Zidane a great deal, and wish the best for him and his future legacy.

[couw]

I've been thinking about Zidane a bit, and what I don't quite understand is... why has it taken this long for him to make a public statement? I would have thought that a forthright person who wants to clear the air and explain his position could easily have done it within 24 hours after the incident. 48 would have been plenty, it seems to me. The delay only makes it look like "planning" a statement is more important than honesty and directness. At any rate, I still admire Zidane a great deal, and wish the best for him and his future legacy.

Well, he hasn't explained his position much beyond what we already knew through his agent the morning after the incident. And before that television worldwide had shows that obviously Materazzi had said something to upset him. The only new part now is that he apologises to Materazzi. As I understand it all, he was first very ashamed and denied to go out for the medal ceremony as he felt undeserving of a medal. Then I gather he went home and visited his mother in the hospital. Yesterday evening the statement came that he would talk on the telly today, so why do it earlier. He certainly is not proud of what he did and I can very well imagine he is not eager to talk about it. So he chose his own venue instead of a horde of screaming journalists. There really is not much to say to make up for what he did.

[ASNL77]

I've been thinking about Zidane a bit, and what I don't quite understand is... why has it taken this long for him to make a public statement? I would have thought that a forthright person who wants to clear the air and explain his position could easily have done it within 24 hours after the incident. 48 would have been plenty, it seems to me. The delay only makes it look like "planning" a statement is more important than honesty and directness. At any rate, I still admire Zidane a great deal, and wish the best for him and his future legacy.

Well, he hasn't explained his position much beyond what we already knew through his agent the morning after the incident. And before that television worldwide had shows that obviously Materazzi had said something to upset him. The only new part now is that he apologises to Materazzi. As I understand it all, he was first very ashamed and denied to go out for the medal ceremony as he felt undeserving of a medal. Then I gather he went home and visited his mother in the hospital. Yesterday evening the statement came that he would talk on the telly today, so why do it earlier. He certainly is not proud of what he did and I can very well imagine he is not eager to talk about it. So he chose his own venue instead of a horde of screaming journalists. There really is not much to say to make up for what he did.

He did not apologise to Materazzi. He apologised to all the children who watched the game and people educating these children as 'this is not something to do'. But he said that he did not regret what he did to him. He said that regreting his gesture would mean that Materazzi was right to do what he did and to say what he said. He also said that Materazzi had been extremely rude to his mother and sister and that he would rather have been punched in the face than hearing these words.

Edited July 12, 2006 by ASNL77

[Jim R]

I've been thinking about Zidane a bit, and what I don't quite understand is... why has it taken this long for him to make a public statement? I would have thought that a forthright person who wants to clear the air and explain his position could easily have done it within 24 hours after the incident. 48 would have been plenty, it seems to me. The delay only makes it look like "planning" a statement is more important than honesty and directness. At any rate, I still admire Zidane a great deal, and wish the best for him and his future legacy.

Well, he hasn't explained his position much beyond what we already knew through his agent the morning after the incident. And before that television worldwide had shows that obviously Materazzi had said something to upset him. The only new part now is that he apologises to Materazzi. As I understand it all, he was first very ashamed and denied to go out for the medal ceremony as he felt undeserving of a medal. Then I gather he went home and visited his mother in the hospital. Yesterday evening the statement came that he would talk on the telly today, so why do it earlier. He certainly is not proud of what he did and I can very well imagine he is not eager to talk about it. So he chose his own venue instead of a horde of screaming journalists. There really is not much to say to make up for what he did.

I'm sure he wouldn't have felt eager, and there's still no way to make excuses for his action, I just think it would have been better to make a statement (or issue same via a representative or spokesperson) sooner, because the impression is given (to me, at least) that he is calculating and planning (perhaps even according to what Materazzi and media people have already stated) instead of speaking the simple truth as he sees it. Oh well, at least he's come forward now (Brad's post came after I made my "complaint", so that minimized it in a way).

[Brad]

I've been thinking about Zidane a bit, and what I don't quite understand is... why has it taken this long for him to make a public statement? I would have thought that a forthright person who wants to clear the air and explain his position could easily have done it within 24 hours after the incident. 48 would have been plenty, it seems to me. The delay only makes it look like "planning" a statement is more important than honesty and directness. At any rate, I still admire Zidane a great deal, and wish the best for him and his future legacy.

Well, he hasn't explained his position much beyond what we already knew through his agent the morning after the incident. And before that television worldwide had shows that obviously Materazzi had said something to upset him. The only new part now is that he apologises to Materazzi. As I understand it all, he was first very ashamed and denied to go out for the medal ceremony as he felt undeserving of a medal. Then I gather he went home and visited his mother in the hospital. Yesterday evening the statement came that he would talk on the telly today, so why do it earlier. He certainly is not proud of what he did and I can very well imagine he is not eager to talk about it. So he chose his own venue instead of a horde of screaming journalists. There really is not much to say to make up for what he did.

He did not apologise to Materazzi. He apologised to all the children who watched the game and people educating these children as 'this is not something to do'. But he said that he did not regret what he did to him. He said that regreting his gesture would mean that Materazzi was right to do what he did and to say what he said. He also said that Materazzi had been extremely rude to his mother and sister and that he would rather have been punched in the face than hearing these words.

Materazzi has reacted to the statement by denying that he said anything about his mother because he lost his when he was 15, BBC Story

[couw]

Things are getting better:

PARIS (AFP): A French lawyer plans to mount a legal challenge to the World Cup final result to establish whether the expulsion of Zinedine Zidane was within the rules.

Zidane, the French captain and playmaker, was sent off in the second period of extra-time of Sunday night's match in Berlin, for a blatant headbutt on an Italian player.

But the off-ball incident was missed by the refree and his linesmen and it was only after consulation with the fourth match official that the decision to red card Zidane was taken.

Italy went on to win the World Cup shortly afterwards 5-3 on penalties.

Lawyer Mehana Mouhou, however, said he intended to ask a Paris court to question the fourth official to ascertain whether he had illegally used videotape to check what had happened.

"If a judge determines that illegal methods were used, the proper consequences must be drawn," he said.

"That means that Zidane should never have been sent off and it would be impossible to predict what the match result would have been and it should be replayed."

Mouhou said he was acting on behalf of "several football clubs."

FIFA rules explicitly state that FIFA is above the lowly worldly courts so this will go nowhere, but it is interesting and I hope to see some video footage that shows us where the fourth had his eyes when the incident took place. And it would certainly be nice to have him look somewhere completely different as that is likely to force FIFA to act with respect to video proof.

[J.A.W.]

Things are getting better:

PARIS (AFP): A French lawyer plans to mount a legal challenge to the World Cup final result to establish whether the expulsion of Zinedine Zidane was within the rules.

Zidane, the French captain and playmaker, was sent off in the second period of extra-time of Sunday night's match in Berlin, for a blatant headbutt on an Italian player.

But the off-ball incident was missed by the refree and his linesmen and it was only after consulation with the fourth match official that the decision to red card Zidane was taken.

Italy went on to win the World Cup shortly afterwards 5-3 on penalties.

Lawyer Mehana Mouhou, however, said he intended to ask a Paris court to question the fourth official to ascertain whether he had illegally used videotape to check what had happened.

"If a judge determines that illegal methods were used, the proper consequences must be drawn," he said.

"That means that Zidane should never have been sent off and it would be impossible to predict what the match result would have been and it should be replayed."

Mouhou said he was acting on behalf of "several football clubs."

As a result, the whole World Cup tournament will have to be replayed