Messengers Sidemen - Columbia Contracts For All?

[JSngry]

Sayeth Ecaroh in his "as told to Donald Elfman" essay for the recently reissued Silver's Blue:

...in 1955 or so, Art had signed with Columbia to make Jazz Messengers records and the kind of signing in that case involved each of the sidemen having  a seperate contract. Donald Byrd had Kenny by then, so we all had contracts. I was anxious to record with Blue Note since Albert Lion was excited about my playing and writing and very much wanted to record me. I had one contract obligation to fulfill with Columbia and that was to be Silver's Blue.

So...

Does this mean that Hank Mobley & Doug Watkins also had a Columbia contract at one time, if only for one album? If so, are there any indications that sessions, formal or otherwise, took place? Or is Horace having a Senior Moment?

As always, thanks in advance!

[bertrand]

If he said Albert Lion, he is indeed having a senior moment.

Usually, he calls him Alfred Lions.

Bertrand.

[mikeweil]

Looks more like a senior moment ...

What was issued, in the end, was one Jazz Messengers LP, two Blakey LPs and one Silver LP. Looks like a two or three year, four album contract. The problem was that the collectively led band broke up after that fabulous first Columbia LPs with three albums still left to record - and things looked pretty bad for Blakey when Mobley, Byrd and Watkins went with Horace .....

I know that doesn't answer your question, but that's what I found at our master chronologist's site:

March 6, 1956: Donald Byrd-tpt; Hank Mobley-tsx; Horace Silver-p; Doug Watkins-b

- [lasted until May 1956. Broke up due to drug problems in the group. Horace Silver's quintet debuted at the Blue Note, Philadelphia in August 1956.]

"Horace went out on his own and didn't look back and I'm very proud of him, because he was in the band and he was very shy when he came in and I told him besides playing you've got to write. So he started writing and his writing was good. He kept it up and he was going. He was very quiet and very nice to me. One night on TV - I don't know where he was - he said, 'I really thank God for Art Blakey because he really got on me and helped me to go on and start writing.' And that made me feel so good. I've never forgotten it. And we've been tight ever since. We've been very good friends. His music is beautiful. He learned how to voice very well. He learned how to utilize two horns to the fullest extent. That's one thing I learned from him. Instead of hearing a whole lot of horns he'd take two horns and get just as much out of two as you can get out of three in most cases. He would utilize every thing. He just turned out to be a hell of an arranger. The more he did it, the better he got. He has some very, very beautiful things like "Nica's Dream." I had a ball playing with him in the rhythm section. We seem to fit together. When he got his own groups he wanted all his drummers to play in the same style as I was trying to play. We always got along musically as well as spiritually and otherwise." - Art Blakey, Radio Free Jazz, March 1977, pp.17-18.

"It first started out being a cooperative thing, but it didn't work because it wasn't equal. I had the weight and it had to go my way and Horace went on his own and that's when we began to bring different cats in. I just kept goin' with it. Well, somebody got to stay here and keep the store and it's been continuing ever since." - Art Blakey, Cadence, July 1981, p.11

[Stereojack]

Looks more like a senior moment ...

What was issued, in the end, was one Jazz Messengers LP, two Blakey LPs and one Silver LP.

Don't forget two LP's by Donald Byrd (w/ Gigi Gryce).

[JSngry]

Yeah, it's the Byrd albums that got me to thinking that maybe Horace was right.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

But where do the Transition sessions led by Byrd and Watkins fit into this?

If the dates are correct, May 7, 1956 was the date of the Beacon Hill session with Byrd and Watkins. (I've already inquired here about the fact that this same date is listed for the Elmo Hope session with Byrd and Coltrane.) The Jazz Messengers recorded a session for Columbia on May 4, 1956 and the final one, which finished off the Rita Reys album (could this be involved in any Columbia contract?), was on June 25, 1956.

The Transition sessions go as far back as December 2, 1955 (Byrd - with the entire Messengers quintet plus Joe Gordon) and as late as December 8, 1956 (Watkins - with Byrd and Mobley).

Mike

[clifford_thornton]

Were the Beacon Hill dates live or studio? I can't remember.

[Dan Gould]

Studio.

[mikeweil]

But where do the Transition sessions led by Byrd and Watkins fit into this?

←

... and did Columbia at that time issue any recordings not made in their studios and supervised by a producer of their choice? Who produced all of these sessions - Mike, do you know (of course you do!)?

Even if the Transition sessions fit in, where is the Mobley album involved?

Is there any report about the modalities of the initial Columbia contract - how long, how many albums?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I would have to dig to confirm, but I believe the Transition albums were produced by Tom Wilson.

When I say "fit in" - I do not believe that these records were ever intended to be issued by Columbia, were supposed to fulfill a Columbia contract, were abandoned by Columbia, or anything like that. I *do* wonder about the Columbia Rita Reys album which has one side accompanied by the Jazz Messengers.

But with regard to Transition, what I am unsure of is how can the facts of the matter (these existing simultaneously recorded sessions) be seen with regard to what Silver has said about Columbia contracts.

Hank Mobley was recording as a leader for Prestige (7/20/56) a few days after he did the final session for Silver's Blue, and then for Savoy (7/23/56) a few days after that. So, if there ever was any Mobley contract with Columbia, no one was interested in enforcing it even during the period when Blakey was continuing to record for Columbia (last session 2/22/57). Remember, FWIW, the Pacific Jazz record (1/14/57) specifically notes that the Jazz Messengers were recorded courtesy of Columbia Records. We see no such thing on any Prestige, Savoy, Transition issues. (And the courtesy was extended so that Chet Baker could record with strings for Columbia).

Mike

[jazzbo]

The Transition sessions WERE produced by Tom Wilson.

[jazzbo]

I also don't feel that Horace's statement can be considered literally accurate.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Quite possibly.

Another speculation would be that it was a matter of numbers - what if the co-op was required to deliver five (equivalent to one for each member) albums to Columbia?

The Jazz Messengers

Hard Bop

Drum Suite

Silver's Blue

The Cool Voice of Rita Reys

I'm hoping to get more info on this and will report back.

Mike

[Stereojack]

So, if there ever was any Mobley contract with Columbia, no one was interested in enforcing it even during the period when Blakey was continuing to record for Columbia (last session 2/22/57). Remember, FWIW, the Pacific Jazz record (1/14/57) specifically notes that the Jazz Messengers were recorded courtesy of Columbia Records. We see no such thing on any Prestige, Savoy, Transition issues. (And the courtesy was extended so that Chet Baker could record with strings for Columbia).

Mike

←

Also, there's no reason to assume that any of these contracts were exclusive. Often, musicians make deals to record for one label, but are not excluded from recording elsewhere, although it was standard at the time that they agree not to record any of the same tunes elsewhere. Mingus got around this (as did others to a lesser extent) by retitling a number of compositions.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

But doesn't the note on the Pacific Jazz album imply that Columbia did have an exclusive in this case? And the fact that Silver was obligated to complete that one album before going with Blue Note?

Mike

[Stereojack]

But doesn't the note on the Pacific Jazz album imply that Columbia did have an exclusive in this case? And the fact that Silver was obligated to complete that one album before going with Blue Note?

Mike

←

Yes, of course. I just wanted to point out that not all contracts are exclusive.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Understood.

Mike

[Joe M]

If he said Albert Lion, he is indeed having a senior moment.

Usually, he calls him Alfred Lions.

Bertrand.

←

It might be Donald Elfman's error, or whomever transcribed the conversation. They weren't "written" liner notes and I could imagine someone not being a Blue Note expert, hearing Horace say "Alfred" and think he said "Albert".

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Columbia producer George Avakian, who was responsible for these sessions, gave me his recollections on this.

Here are some excerpts:

================================================

I believe my memory is correct - that the Messengers contract was with Blakey. Horace may be thinking about the co-op agreement within the Messengers.

I'm sure I would remember such an unusual recording contract, if it included every member of the group. But I don't.

What I do remember is that I was impressed by Horace (and Don [byrd]) as musicians a cut well above the usual "open Monday night at Birdland" types who were all over the place, recording for Savoy and Prestige and Roulette, and I was quick to grab Horace - who impressed me deeply was a person as well as a musician - for an album on Epic.

So I think I recorded Horace under a separate contract, and that the option was not picked up by Epic.

As for whether Columbia would have been obligated to record Mobley or Watkins - or Byrd - as a separate leader, I am positive that nothing like that existed, which makes me feel even more strongly that Horace is thinking about an internal Messengers agreement.

The Byrd-Gryce contract came about because I followed Don's career, and of course the contact through Blakey had aroused my interest in Don (who was also a very nice guy) to a degree that I might not have had otherwise. Also, I was impressed by a couple of Gryce compositions I had heard, as well as the quality of the group, which I hoped would become another Jazz Messengers. (Didn't happen - no flamboyance, which of course Blakey had plenty, and Horace not quite enough although he looked great in action.)

The Messengers recorded one session with Rita Reys (a Philips artist, pronounced "Rice"), so I believe there was a separate side agreement because the masters were owned by our affiliate, not us. I had met and heard Rita in Holland, of course, and knew she was an extraordinary singer - better than 90% of all the American female singers I had ever heard, and that still goes, if not more so because there are far more bad American singers today than in the fifties).

================================================

Mike

[jazzbo]

Thanks for sharing that Mike.

[Peter Johnson]

Thanks Mike--an example of what liner notes should contain, while we still have the ability to get these guys' recollections!!!

[Stereojack]

The Messengers recorded one session with Rita Reys (a Philips artist, pronounced "Rice"), so I believe there was a separate side agreement because the masters were owned by our affiliate, not us. I had met and heard Rita in Holland, of course, and knew she was an extraordinary singer - better than 90% of all the American female singers I had ever heard, and that still goes, if not more so because there are far more bad American singers today than in the fifties).

================================================

Mike

←

And all these years I've been pronouncing her name "rays".

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Honest to God, the original LP (CL 903) has an asterisk and note that reads:

(*Pronounced "raise")

Mike

[JSngry]

Deeply appreciated, Mike.

[Dan Gould]

Columbia producer George Avakian, who was responsible for these sessions, gave me his recollections on this.

Here are some excerpts:

================================================

I believe my memory is correct - that the Messengers contract was with Blakey. Horace may be thinking about the co-op agreement within the Messengers.

I'm sure I would remember such an unusual recording contract, if it included every member of the group.  But I don't. 

What I do remember is that I was impressed by Horace (and Don [byrd]) as musicians a cut well above the usual "open Monday night at Birdland" types who were all over the place, recording for Savoy and Prestige and Roulette, and I was quick to grab Horace - who impressed me deeply was a person as well as a musician - for an album on Epic.

================================================

Mike

←

OK, my follow-up question would have been, does that mean you regarded Mobley as one of the "usual 'open Monday night at Birdland " types who were all over the place, recording for Savoy and Prestige and Roulette"?

Or, put another way, did you regard Mobley as a cut below Horace/Byrd?

Thanks Mike, for sharing this, by the way.