JSngry Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 I think that Dunlop's exuberance was a perfect flavor for Monk's "breakout" years of the early 60s. Bold and brash, no mystery, which to me suited the coming-of age of Monk as a "mainstream act". Same with Rouse, who also lacked any real subtlety/mystery compared to his predecessors. The Rouse/Dunlop edition of the quartet strikes me as being the peak of Monk's "commercial" evolution, just as the Rouse/Riley edition strikes me as being the inevitable slow decline which follows any peak. If any Monk drummer gets on my nerves, it's Riley. SNOOOOOOOZE! For sure, Dunlop w/Monk in the 50s wouldn't have worked. But Dunlop w/Monk in the early 60s sounds to me today like a classic combination of its time, place, and career circumstances. Of course, I'm coming to all of this stuff after it happened and was already on the books. You guys saw/heard it as it happened, and I suppose that if I had been used to Monk w/Blakey & Max & Roy & etc, that the sudden appearance of both Dunlop and Rouse might have been cause for puzzlement. But I didn't come to it like that. It's really refreshing to be able to feel young and foolish again. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 If any Monk drummer gets on my nerves, it's Riley. SNOOOOOOOZE! It's really refreshing to be able to feel young and foolish again. Thanks! ← Riley was a snooze, 'cept he was there for the best Monk Columbia (IMO) "Live at the It Club". At his point I wish to mention the lp version (edited by Teo) had much more impact than the "restored" cd version. Wish I'd kept the lps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 I'm a fan of Frankie Dunlop with Monk - and most every other place I've heard him too. One thing I like about him is his approach to soloing, which is very much about melodic reference. I love Blakey with Monk, more for the groove because a Blakey solo is about Blakeyisms, not about the tune. I was definitely impressed with the Shadow Wilson on the new issue - would love to hear more of that. Ben Riley - totally agree that he's the most boring of the lot. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 For me, Dunlop was the "bouncy" equivialant of (dating myself) Debbie Reynolds, Doris Day or Sally Field. The problem was Rock Hudson was not on the next pillow, it was MONK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Ok, but the man in the middle was Rouse, so whatcha gonna do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereojack Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Of course, I'm coming to all of this stuff after it happened and was already on the books. You guys saw/heard it as it happened, and I suppose that if I had been used to Monk w/Blakey & Max & Roy & etc, that the sudden appearance of both Dunlop and Rouse might have been cause for puzzlement. But I didn't come to it like that. I saw it as it happened, and I still love Dunlop, so that ain't it, necessarily. However, I didn't get to see Monk until Riley was on board, but not yet on record. Hated him, and it wan't until probably 20 years later that I had any use for him. I agree with Chuck about the "restored" live Monk albums - less IS more! And I did keep the LP's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 (edited) Ok, but the man in the middle was Rouse, so whatcha gonna do? ← You blaming Rouse? Hey everybody, Jim just laid it on a tenor player! Edited October 8, 2005 by Chuck Nessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 I'm a fan of Frankie Dunlop with Monk - and most every other place I've heard him too. One thing I like about him is his approach to soloing, which is very much about melodic reference. I love Blakey with Monk, more for the groove because a Blakey solo is about Blakeyisms, not about the tune. I was definitely impressed with the Shadow Wilson on the new issue - would love to hear more of that. Ben Riley - totally agree that he's the most boring of the lot. Mike ← But I LOVE Blakeyism's! Gimme that rim shot! Monk's Music was one of the first jazz albums I owned, and to me Blakey is great on that. More than anything else, Blakey's drumming is the sound of jazz to me. Have more recordings by the Jazz Messengers than by anyone else. Saw him live for the first time in the 80's. Free concert in Wilmington, DE. Benny Green's first gig with the band. He was very nervous first solo, but then let it fly on Moanin'. Philip Harper, who I had never heard of until that night, was on fire the whole evening. And Blakey gave a great little speech at the end of the show, that I still remember, asking people to get out and support jazz. He said it was "A gift from the Creator, through us, to you". I like Dunlap OK with Monk, like him much better with Curtis Counce. Shadow Wilson and Ben Riley work well with Monk also for me, better than Dunlap IMO. I love Blakey with anyone. Max Roach was pretty great on Brilliant Corners, and Art Taylor was fine on 5 by Monk by 5. Not surprisingly, Monk never found his Elvin Jones or Tony Williams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Ok, but the man in the middle was Rouse, so whatcha gonna do? ← You blaming Rouse? Hey everybody, Jim just laid it on a tenor player! ← It is a mark (VI, most likely...) of the Supreme Power Of The Tenor that such a dynamic came to be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Your mention of Curtis Counce makes me think you have confused Frankie Dunlop with Frank Butler. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Your mention of Curtis Counce makes me think you have confused Frankie Dunlop with Frank Butler. Mike ← You're right. I need to go to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 If any Monk drummer gets on my nerves, it's Riley. SNOOOOOOOZE! It's really refreshing to be able to feel young and foolish again. Thanks! ← Riley was a snooze, 'cept he was there for the best Monk Columbia (IMO) "Live at the It Club". At his point I wish to mention the lp version (edited by Teo) had much more impact than the "restored" cd version. Wish I'd kept the lps. ← Agree completely. I've kept the CDs for the extra material, but the LPs have a presence that's lacking on the CDs. Chuck just read your post a second time. I'm talking about the sound. Are you talking about the music being edited (bass solos cut out, fewer tracks, etc.) having more impact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBop Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 Okay, I'm pretty ignorant about the music biz. So, a dumb question: how did this session end up on Blue Note? Did they simply buy the rights (e.g., highest bidder)? Or was there something else involved? Seems to me that Monk was a Riverside artist at the time; Trane was playing for Prestige or someone - though both were moving pretty regularly in this era, as I recall. I did buy a copy, but it's been waiting for me at home for about a month while I've been traveling. So, if the answer is in the liner notes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 I'm a fan of Frankie Dunlop with Monk - and most every other place I've heard him too. One thing I like about him is his approach to soloing, which is very much about melodic reference. I love Blakey with Monk, more for the groove because a Blakey solo is about Blakeyisms, not about the tune. I was definitely impressed with the Shadow Wilson on the new issue - would love to hear more of that. Ben Riley - totally agree that he's the most boring of the lot. Mike ← Fully agreed - although I wouldn't call Riley boring: he's just the most conventional of the bunch. But compared to Dunlop or Shadow or Haynes ..... Played Epistrophy from the new CD to a drummer friend today - what Shadow does on the cup of the ride cymbal is amazing, and he does it differently on the second version! Every drummer these days would get fired for doing this! Shadow is a ball on this. And his presence is just right, he's not too loud - drummers are as important as any other instrument, and notes about the drummer being recorded to loud are a drag, IMHO. because a Blakey solo is about Blakeyisms, not about the tune. That's exactly what I dislike about Blakey - or maybe I just had enough of it ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jostber Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 It's amazing. This CD has been one of the most selling at www.amazon.com for some weeks now since it's release at September 27. Today it's at number 2, beaten only by Rod Stewart singing jazz again. Not bad for a session originally recorded in 1957 by two jazz giants playing music for open ears. A good sign of the times? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/new-f...3064274-2874231 It's pretty high on the amazon.co.uk list too. Mosaic will also release it on 200 gram vinyl in November: http://www.mosaicrecords.com/prodinfo.asp?number=231-MR-LP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregK Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 It's amazing. This CD has been one of the most selling at www.amazon.com for some weeks now since it's release at September 27. Today it's at number 2, beaten only by Rod Stewart singing jazz again. rod stewart sings jazz?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Chuck just read your post a second time. I'm talking about the sound. Are you talking about the music being edited (bass solos cut out, fewer tracks, etc.) having more impact? ← I was saying Teo's editing made the music "stronger" for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 That echo added sure was a bit much though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 I was wondering where this thread was. I've been listening to this disc since its official release and I am absolutely blown away by Epistrophy. I mean, every time I hear Monk and band (pick one) play Epistrophy, I'm blown away, but this band had a unique approach to it, led off by Shadow. Wow. What a setup! All aboard! At times, I don't even realize that Coltrane is playing. Some of the unison sections on the slower tempo tunes, he finds a way to blend into Monk so well. Other times, I feel like he is working up enough velocity to the point where he is moving in place and the rest of the music is moving forward. It puzzled me at first. I was listening and thinking that he wasn't moving with the music, but it only took a few listens to break in on me. Coltrane is in total control of his instrument here, and able to trace through this music with a real sense of familiarity and exhilaration. The bass does seem to be the lowest in the mix, but not terrible at all. Shadow is very up front, along with Monk and Coltrane and I actually like this mix quite a bit. Especially considering Shadow's stripped down drum kit. This is like a stripped down quartet. Monk is having a blast. I'm sure he was a lot of fun to be around that night! Great release. Still looking forward to hearing the Bird&Diz for the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agriffith Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 (edited) QUOTE from Jsngry: "the Rouse/Riley edition strikes me as being the inevitable slow decline which follows any peak. If any Monk drummer gets on my nerves, it's Riley. SNOOOOOOOZE!" Well, I feel compelled to defend Riley somewhat here. For sure, at times I've noticed that he and Larry Gales would occasionally drag the beat (check out "Blue Monk" on Live At The It Club; the tempo slows down as the tune continues). And sometimes Ben sounds like he might be getting bored or sleepy. BUT, when he's in the groove and swinging with Monk, he is EXCELLENT! Check out "Rhythm-a-ning" from the same It Club cd; GREAT Riley playing on there! Comparing his solos with Dunlop: I think Dunlop's solos with Monk are always on target in terms of following the tunes' forms, as well as their melodic and rhythmic subtleties. Ben Riley's solos tend to be harder to follow, although he does play some very nice ones. Sometimes, though, I think he might be unsure of where he is in the form. BUT, Monk being the greatest musician at following drum solos I've ever heard, ALWAYS seems to know where it is. I've seen Ben in person and talked quite awhile with him about Monk. Funny, he mentioned to me that he DID get tired of playing Blue Monk night after night. But, he said laughing, the more he played it incorrectlly (or dropped the tempo on it, perhaps), the more Monk would play it again and again. To test him, in other words. Also, Ben spoke of Shadow Wilson as one of his biggest influences; he was there at the five spot often to see Wilson with Monk. I think I can hear the Wilson influence in Riley's cymbal work and in his phrasing at times. By the way, when I saw Ben he had just recovered from a coma about a week before. This was his first job back out with Kenny Barron. Ben played beautifully that night (wonderful brushwork)! Very gracious and warm person. I feel blessed to have met him. And, in reference to Monk Trane Carnegie, Shadow wilson is OUTSTANDING in every way! One more Riley story: He told me this himself. When he was fairly young he saw Monk play at the Apollo Theater. He said Monk came out and played one tune AND sounded just like Bud Powell (could be an exaggeration, but still............)! After he finished he slammed the piano lid down and left the stage! Needless to say, Ben was pretty shocked by that. (I think I messed up the quote part here, but hopefully it's clear.) Edited October 28, 2005 by agriffith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 At times, I don't even realize that Coltrane is playing. Some of the unison sections on the slower tempo tunes, he finds a way to blend into Monk so well. ← That's the thing that's become increasingly intriguing to me - listening to Trane's phrasing/articulation on the heads. Very unique in comparison to other Monk saxophonists, and, yes, more often than not perfectly melded with Monk's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 QUOTE from Jsngry: "the Rouse/Riley edition strikes me as being the inevitable slow decline which follows any peak. If any Monk drummer gets on my nerves, it's Riley. SNOOOOOOOZE!" Well, I feel compelled to defend Riley somewhat here. For sure, at times I've noticed that he and Larry Gales would occasionally drag the beat (check out "Blue Monk" on Live At The It Club; the tempo slows down as the tune continues). And sometimes Ben sounds like he might be getting bored or sleepy. BUT, when he's in the groove and swinging with Monk, he is EXCELLENT! Check out "Rhythm-a-ning" from the same It Club cd; GREAT Riley playing on there!← Indeed. Riley with Jaws/Griff was just dandy, probably the best/most perfect drummer that great group ever had, and he's certainly been fine (or better!) elsewhere over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Great release. Still looking forward to hearing the Bird&Diz for the first time. ← I can help you with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tapscott Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Finally got this last night. The store manager was raving about it, saying how they had opened a copy in the store and had been playing it all day. So I left the store on a real high, very much looking forward to hearing it. Well, maybe I was just weary after along week, but somehow my first listen left me slightly underwhelmed. Fine sound, very good 'Trane, swinging rhythm section, some very interesting playing by Monk, and I definitely feel the need to listen to this one some more. And I agree it's a very interesting historical find. But so far, I'm missing something. I don't know where the thread is about Monk/Trane v. Gillespie/Parker, but my vote so far would definitely go to the Uptown release for historical significance and sheer excitement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Great release. Still looking forward to hearing the Bird&Diz for the first time. ← I can help you with that. ← I know. I know. I will be placing an order soon... times is tight and I can't order just one disc from YOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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