Bob James

[Jazz Kat]

In the mid 70s before I became interested in jazz, I was interested and had a few of his albums including Touchdown.  Also had the George Benson, Earl Klugh, etc. kind of material.  I don't think it's the kind of thing I'd want to listen to today but it was fun.  At the time I thought it was jazz but I know better now.

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What it jazz really though.

but more seriously,

I don't think of music as types of styles anymore. Yeah, the majority of stuff I listen to, people are calling jazz, but I wish we'd all just listen to music, and whatever we like...we like..

[Guest akanalog]

yo jk-

this bob james stuff you are diggin doesnt really hold up to repeated listenings. as noj rightly points out, there is like one classic banger per album. overall the albums are ok, but unless you are producing beats and looking for samples i think you will find, as i think everyone in this thread has, that this music is amusing and groovy-but it will get old quick because there is not much depth there. and there isn't supposed to be-this was commercial music. i see you are in new york-do you listen to the smooth jazz station? i mean i do sometimes. and i have a lot of these bob james albums on LP. i am not knocking them-but this was popular commercial music and as such isn't asking you for deep exploration. i mean i listen to some jean-luc ponty too and i was supporting that lenny white album last week that people dipped me for, but i mean it's music when you don't want to think. i bet this bob james will eventually lead you wanting something a bit more challenging. it is a good gateway to other things, though. and it is good for driving around in your friend's used cadillac smoking cigarettes going to a party.

hmmm-this is off topic sort of, but perhaps an album to check out is carla bley's "dinner music" which combines some people from her posse with some bob james posse people (actually i guess people from the band stuff). the stuff sort of vibe wins out mostly but it is interesting to hear.

[DukeCity]

yo jk-

this bob james stuff you are diggin doesnt really hold up to repeated listenings....  i bet this bob james will eventually lead you wanting something a bit more challenging.

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I completely agree, akanalog! I had some bob james sides in the '70s and they were enjoyable for what they are. I have saxophone students come to me and when I ask them who they're into I hear that they like (shudder) Kenny G. After I stifle my gag reflex, I encourage them to find out who his influences are. So they might learn about someone like Grover Washington, Jr. and then check out his influences to get to Stanley Turrentine, then back to Dexter. From there you can move forward to early Trane, etc. Like six degrees of separation, you can take almost any entry point or gateway, and get to some pretty happening and deep music in just a few steps.

In the meantime, JK, just enjoy whatever you're digging at the moment, and be open to checking out whatever comes. That's my 2 cents...

[Jim Alfredson]

Sounds to me like JK is a lot more open to things than a lot of people in this thread.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

More open? I would say instead "less discriminating" - listeners who have decades of background have "been around the block" and have wisdom to see what is substantial and what isn't. Someone who is new to - food, let's say - thinks everything is wonderful. It's only after years of development that one can discern the subtle differences and discriminate between what is mediocre, good, excellent, and superb. Of course, some people never get there and they still eat at the Olive Garden and they still like it and think it's fine Italian.

Mike

[marcello]

More open? I would say instead "less discriminating" - listeners who have decades of background have "been around the block" and have wisdom to see what is substantial and what isn't. Someone who is new to - food, let's say -  thinks everything is wonderful. It's only after years of development that one can discern the subtle differences and discriminate between what is mediocre, good, excellent, and superb. Of course, some people never get there and they still eat at the Olive Garden and they still like it and think it's fine Italian.

Mike

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..... or: "A man has got to have his standards!"

[king ubu]

half-full, half-empty really.

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my can of beer is three quarters empty again, already...

[Free For All]

Someone who is new to - food, let's say -  thinks everything is wonderful.

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When I was a kid there were many foods I hated that I now love, and there were many foods that were kid-related that I now can't stand. My parents telling me "it's good for you" or "it's bad for you" didn't make a bit of difference; I had to figure it out on my own. You know, touch the hot stove after you were warned not to.

Listening to music was/is a similar journey. Many artists I didn't "get" when I was young I now love (like Monk and Mingus). Many of the things I listened to then I eventually grew away from. Once again, being told what I should and shouldn't like made no difference to me.

I did frequently seek advice from my peers, and this advice widened my musical horizons.

So I guess my point is that our young friends should be allowed their youthful indulgences without having to endure too much browbeating. We need to cultivate a new generation of jazz fans, and we don't need to be chasing them off with elitist attitudes. That being said, if JK or anyone else asks the membership what they think of a specific artist or recording, they should be prepared to hear honest opinions be they good or bad. And we owe them no less than an honest opinion.

Edited September 29, 2005 by Free For All

[Michael Fitzgerald]

What I object to is the idea that if one person likes one of three things and someone else likes all three - the second person is called "open-minded" as if that's some kind of praise. And the first person is called "closed-minded" when it could be that the first person has the wisdom to discern between the three, rather than thinking all three are great. I'm not saying that's *necessarily* true, but when you consider the background and experience of the people, that should tell you something.

Just because one likes MORE stuff doesn't mean anything. What are the standards of evaluation? How are the judgments being made?

Mike

[king ubu]

Now my glass is emptily full.

I guess it's also a question of time. I mean, I'm still young, but at the same time I have enough things I want to do to realize that there are many other (possibly great) things that I will most likely never come around doing. Like, I could probably read twenty times as many books that I'd love to read than fit into one lifetime... same applies to music. There's a few thousand discs around, and I am constantly having huge piles of stuff I'd love to listen right now and right here... so why spend my time listening to stuff I don't really get much from? That, indeed has nothing to do with being open-minded or not.

[Jazz Kat]

yo jk-

this bob james stuff you are diggin doesnt really hold up to repeated listenings.  as noj rightly points out, there is like one classic banger per album.  overall the albums are ok, but unless you are producing beats and looking for samples i think you will find, as i think everyone in this thread has, that this music is amusing and groovy-but it will get old quick because there is not much depth there.  and there isn't supposed to be-this was commercial music.  i see you are in new york-do you listen to the smooth jazz station?  i mean i do sometimes.  and i have a lot of these bob james albums on LP.  i am not knocking them-but this was popular commercial music and as such isn't asking you for deep exploration.  i mean i listen to some jean-luc ponty too and i was supporting that lenny white album last week that people dipped me for, but i mean it's music when you don't want to think.  i bet this bob james will eventually lead you wanting something a bit more challenging.  it is a good gateway to other things, though.  and it is good for driving around in your friend's used cadillac smoking cigarettes going to a party.

hmmm-this is off topic sort of, but perhaps an album to check out is carla bley's "dinner music" which combines some people from her posse with some bob james posse people (actually i guess people from the band stuff).  the stuff sort of vibe wins out mostly but it is interesting to hear.

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Yeah I am kind of getting tired of Two already. Another album that I absolutely loved when I first bought it, but now is getting boring is George Benson's Breezin'.

But then ther are the albums that are kind of in the same catogory, but I never tire of. I really don't know how people are going to respond to this thing, but Chuck Mangione's Alive is probaly one of my favorite albums. I first got that album when I was eight. I really didn't like it for the same reasons I like it now. It's very fusion influenced. A bit more "dirty," "raunchy," and and funky than most his later albums. I think every musician on that album was at the top of their game.

Somebody just told me they relate Chuck Mangione with Kenny G. That is fucking ridiculous! Yet on the other hand he tells me Spyro Gyra are good musicians and can read.

Chuck Mangione was a great writer. Some of his songs are abosultely beautiful, and I will defend to my grave that he is not a smooth jazz musician. Back to that album, Alive. 1972 with Gerry Niewood, Tony Levin, and Steve Gadd. A kick ass version of St. Thomas, High Heel Sneekers, Chuck's awesome 12 minute suite 60 Miles Young, and his other tune Legend of The One Eyed Sailor. I don't get why he lost his rep after he went from playing with Art Blakey, to playing a more fusion influenced type of music. I guess Chuck is just special to me. I played on stage with him when I was 8, and he was one of my first musicians I actually loved and called my favorite before I got into bop and such.

[Jazz Kat]

I still love all Mangione's music. The Feels So Good album is actually quite good, for me. Journey To A Raimbow has got some nice tunes on it. It's his late 80's stuff that I loathe.

[Aggie87]

I still love all Mangione's music.

...

It's his late 80's stuff that I loathe.

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Make up your mind!

[JSngry]

I've wondered about this general 70's transition into sentimentalism...

I guess the money was coming in for some of these guys

and you had Klemmer making "sexy" songs

and Mangione making mushy sap and James making fop-funk

and Corea wanting to "communicate" with his pixie crap and so on...

Guys that really could of continued building on their inventiveness

just seemed to drop the ball or maybe

they just began putting little acorns and spray-paint on them a la Martha Stewart.

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My guess is that their favorite Beatle was Paul...

[JSngry]

Or Brian Epstein...

[marcello]

I still love all Mangione's music. The Feels So Good album is actually quite good, for me. Journey To A Raimbow has got some nice tunes on it. It's his late 80's stuff that I loathe.

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Here is a photo of a young beboper Mangione from Noal Cohen's website ( Noal on Drums ):

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Chuck could play real bebop trumpet.

.... and write some beautiful melodies ( Belavia ) and arangements ( Hill Where the Lord Hides) .

Edited September 30, 2005 by marcello

[johnagrandy]

I have saxophone students come to me and when I ask them who they're into I hear that they like (shudder) Kenny G. After I stifle my gag reflex,

Sorry. Can't resist ....

http://www.thedeadkennygs.com/

And these cats can play. Skerik and Dillon ... can you say sick ?

Don't look at the t-shirt ... that is, unless hearing one bar from Kenny makes you puke up your stomach, intestines, liver, kidneys, spleen, colon, etc.

Then you might find yourself actually appreciating it .... as I somehow strangely did.

Edited September 30, 2005 by johnagrandy

[Jim Alfredson]

I have saxophone students come to me and when I ask them who they're into I hear that they like (shudder) Kenny G. After I stifle my gag reflex,

Sorry. Can't resist ....

http://www.thedeadkennygs.com/

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Now that's just silly.

[Late]

This is the only James album I own. I dig it.

[B. Clugston]

There is a Bob James-Eric Dolphy connection.

Many years back, Blue Note released a collection of Dolphy tracks called Other Aspects. Among the tracks was "Jim Crow," recorded with an unidentified counter-tenor and piano/bass/drums. Turns out the piano trio was the Bob James trio and the track was actually a Bob James composition called "A Personal Statement." http://www.semja.org/dec99/index.html

Dolphy, the trio and eight french horns also performed a great Dolphy composition called "Strength and Unity" (sometimes referred to as "Strength with Unity"). It sounds not unlike Dolphy's "In the Blues." The tune is at http://adale.org/Discographies/LateED.html

[clifford_thornton]

The ESP is the only one I own, too, though I'd like to hear the Mercury from '64.

Bob Pozar is the drummer on both, and he's a special cat.

[AndrewHill]

The Bob James albums I've got enjoyment from are not on CTI, but ESP and Mercury, both from the 60s. No Steve Gadd anywhere on those, but Barre Phillips is on the former.

Yeah, I know Bob James, but I totally agree with CT here. Do not dismiss his ESP and Mercury date. I just picked up both recently and these are worthwhile listens. I'm enjoying both, if not the ESP more, quite a bit!

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i bet you it was blakey who intruduced young chuck to the white hippo dust!

[xybert]

Bump.

I just ordered a few Bob James albums from Amazon Japan. Looks like most of his seventies and early eighties stuff has been reissued in a 1000 yen type way (anyway, 2015 release date and they're in that price range but i'm not sure with regards to remasters or other details or what 'series' they're officially part of). Yeah there's probably smarter things to spend my money on but what the hell. The new releases i want to get are still a month or so off and i've got money burning a hole in my pocket. I've always wanted to get Touchdown, and the price is right and i figured i throw a few other albums in so it wouldn't be lonely in my collection (Lucky 7 and two albums with Earl Klugh, the one with the matches on the cover and the one with the playing cards on the cover).

In selecting the albums that i wanted to get along with Touchdown i did quite a bit of listening to individual tracks on Youtube, Allmusic samples and what i could find on Spotify. So, not a Bob James expert by any stretch but it definitely strikes me that in general there's one or two tracks that i really dig per album and the rest is not so enjoyable. Frustratingly quite a lot of his songs start cool but then the bell-bottoms/Love Boat descends. What i've heard of Touchdown and Lucky 7 i really dig though, and the two early albums with Klugh as well.

[CJ Shearn]

Chris, I definitely share your feelings re: Bob. For me, liking only a few tracks doesn't justify me buying an album, I just skip it altogether, if I don't enjoy listening to it. Now, there are some albums that are intentionally bad "Blue Note Live at the Roxy", and "Blue Note Meets the L.A. Philharmonic" I just have to represent the bad years of BN. I have a good friend who loves Bob James' CTI albums and some others I think, and for me, I don't feel the James CTI discs hold up. "Touchdown" was a record we had when I was a child, and I never liked it then, and don't like it now. I recently went back to YT to hear a bit and I really didn't dig it. As far as the CTI stuff theres only a handful of albums after 1974 that I really dig, though I do think James contributed great arrangements to "Inner City Blues" and "Soul Box". "Explosions" is a cool record.

Edited February 25, 2015 by CJ Shearn