Guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Posted March 6, 2006 Hello fellow Jazz-friends! I just picked up a JRVG copy (mini LP sleeve) of Hank Mobley & His All Stars - an excellent session. However I was very disappointed with the sound quality. It is very dark and muddy with practically no definition and the high end is nonexistent. Is this session really this bad in other issues as normal TOCJ or TOCJ-24 or domestic? Has anyone compared different issues? I have several BN dates which sound much better that were recorded 1956/57. This Mobley was from 13th jan 1957. Just when BN got into Stereo. I know for a fact that RVG "messed up" some of these early (1999) JRVG and RVG discs. He narrowed the stereo spread to almost mono and some CDs were issued as mono when they were later issued as stereo in the TOCJ-24 series ). For example Lee Morgan's City Lights (not mastered by Rudy). This Hank Mobley session is listed as Stereo on cduniverse. They could be wrong of course? So whats the deal here - have I bought another bummer? Please help me! /Shaft Quote
mikeweil Posted March 6, 2006 Report Posted March 6, 2006 The first Blue Note session recorded in stereo was Sabu's Palo Congo on April 27, 1957 (it was issued only in mono at the time on Blue Note LP 1561). CD Universe is wrong when they state Hank Mobley & his All Stars is stereo. Maybe the tapes have deteriorated - I have a Japanse LP reissue from the 1980's that sounds okay - although a slight phasing effect on the cymbals is audible - I have the impression Van Gelder sometimes had problems achieving a good cymbal sound. But it could well be a tracking problem with the tapes or as I stated above, the aging of the tapes. Quote
couw Posted March 6, 2006 Report Posted March 6, 2006 I had the domestic 19something and it sounded like mud. I got the TOCJ (1996, 20bit BNWorks) and although it is better, it also sounds like mud. It would be interesting to know how an early LP sounds, but my guess is it will also sound like mud. Quote
bertrand Posted March 6, 2006 Report Posted March 6, 2006 This session also sounds muddy in the Mosaic box. You take what you can get... Bertrand. Quote
jazzbo Posted March 6, 2006 Report Posted March 6, 2006 Hmmm. . . to my ears on my system the RVG sounds the best of the lot . . .and still doesn't sound really good. Quote
J.A.W. Posted March 6, 2006 Report Posted March 6, 2006 As far as I remember the original LP didn't sound very good either. It's obviously a not-so-good recording. Quote
Allan Songer Posted March 6, 2006 Report Posted March 6, 2006 As far as I remember the original LP didn't sound very good either. It's obviously a not-so-good recording. You got that right! I have a near mint flat-edge deep-groove "New York 23" pressing that is DEAD quiet--it's one of the cleanest Blue Note I own and it STILL sounds like mud. This is the worst recorded Blue Note of the 12" era in my opinion. I'd like to hear what RVG says about this session--why does it sound so BAD? Quote
brownie Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 The worst-sounding BN vinyl I have is a BN Liberty of this All Stars session. It's one of those dreadful 'Electronically Re-recorded to simulate STEREO' job! Sounds flat and - oh, yes -muddy! Still waiting to get a reissue in good sound... Quote
Bluerein Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 The new 24 Bit TOCJ is not muddy at all. A bit too bright imo but Hank's tenor has a nice Van Gelder living room ambience on it and sounds very "real". Very low on the bass side (Watkins is hardly audible and the piano is light too). Milt is clear and sounds ok. Indeed not the best sounding BN but surely not muddy as described in all the previous postings. I'll compare it with the JRvG and the TOCJ-1544 is have also. Quote
sidewinder Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 The late-80s CD reissue sounds very muddy too, as does the Mosaic. Might explain why I rarely ever play this session. Quote
J.A.W. Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 Still waiting to get a reissue in good sound... Sorry, but I think you can forget about that. A bad recording can't be remedied by a mastering job. Quote
brownie Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 Hans, I'm afraid you're right The first Blue Note session recorded in stereo was Sabu's Palo Congo on April 27, 1957 (it was issued only in mono at the time on Blue Note LP 1561). Mike, I'm afraid you're wrong! The Cuscuna/Ruppli BN Label discography book (first edition 1988) states that the first session recorded by BN in both mono and stereo was the May 8, 1957 session (Horace Silver 'The Stylings of Silver'). Or has this Bible been proved wrong? Quote
Guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 Hi guys! You are the best!! 10 answers in a couple of hours. WOW! From the answers it seems that:' 1. It was only recorded i mono (not with a stereo reel on the side) 2. The original LP sound like mud 3. The Domestic CD, TOCJ and JRVG sound like mud 4. Possibly the new 24bit TOCJ sounds OK. Why really beats me because if the master tape is bad from the start it cannot be corrected. An exception would be if the Toshiba master copys are now in better shape than the original master. I've read somewhere that they have their own second generation copies from the original masters. It could also be that is is EQ'ed to be brighter in the TOCJ-24 issue. I have several other that are on the brighter side but still sound good. Jazzbo, did you lot include the TOCJ-24 issue? Bluerein, please get back after comparison Thanks again Shaft PS I really love the music! My favourites are Ultramarine, Lower Stratosphere and Mobley's Musings. Great stuff. Quote
David Ayers Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 Uh - seems I'm a bit late to come in on this one. I only know the TOCJ and the Mosaic. While the TOCJ is much superior to the Mosaic, the limitations of the original tape shine through even on the TOCJ. It has always sounded to me like the problem is with the deterioration of the source(s) used, but that is just an impression and descriptions of the LP seem to confirm it was always dodgy. That said, I love this session even in manky sound! Quote
mikeweil Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 The first Blue Note session recorded in stereo was Sabu's Palo Congo on April 27, 1957 (it was issued only in mono at the time on Blue Note LP 1561). Mike, I'm afraid you're wrong! The Cuscuna/Ruppli BN Label discography book (first edition 1988) states that the first session recorded by BN in both mono and stereo was the May 8, 1957 session (Horace Silver 'The Stylings of Silver'). Or has this Bible been proved wrong? I have this from a note by Cuscuna himself on some reissue he produced! (I think it was the Japanese 3 LP boy "The Other Side of Blue Note 1500 Series".) As I said, the Sabu was only released in mono at the time - maybe the Silver was the first Blue Note to be issued in both mono and stereo. I had the Japanese LP reissue Cuscuna produced back then and now have the Japanese CD - clearly stereo. Quote
mikeweil Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 (edited) These comments are not an encouragement to buy the Mosaic - I meanwhile I regret I sold most of my Japanese LPs (except for the All Stars which I always liked best among his 1950's sessions) to raise some funds. Well - as legendary as RVG is - in his earlier years he made mistakes, maybe because he was largely self-taught. He had some preconceptions about intrument isolation/separation that didn't always work too well. As long as he still recorded in his parents' living room he probably had to do this - but close miking of a cymbal is a risky thing. Blakey sometimes played very hard on the ride - thus the distortion on Tina Brooks' Minor Move LP, and the Mobley All Stars is close. As soon as the drummer uses a rather loose cymbal suspension you get into trouble with close miking - you get an audible phasing effect which is getting worse when the tape ages or the tape tracking isn't adjusted correctly. The treble range is affected first when a tape machine shows tracking problems - that's what this session sound like to me. Engineers with larger, good sounding recording rooms like Howard Holzer and Ray Du Nann at Contemporary never had these problems. On that LP I have the bass is prominent - a remastering error with the newer reissues? On the RVG of Wayne Shorter's Adam's Applethe bass slao was less prominentthan on previous issues ..... Edited March 7, 2006 by mikeweil Quote
Guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 David Ayers, Which TOCJ have you been listening to. The old TOCJ or the new TOCJ-24bit? /Shaft Quote
jazzbo Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 No, I have not bought any of the new TOCJ 24 bit cds. I'm funny in that I prefer RVGs to the nonRVG TOCJ series in almost every instance. I'm not spending the import dollars now unless there are titles that aren't available domestically. Quote
J.A.W. Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 No, I have not bought any of the new TOCJ 24 bit cds. I'm funny in that I prefer RVGs to the nonRVG TOCJ series in almost every instance. I'm not spending the import dollars now unless there are titles that aren't available domestically. And I'm the opposite , except that I don't buy TOCJ24s anymore; the sound on many of those is compressed/loud and aggressive - Walter Davis' Davis Cup TOCJ24 is a good example of what I mean, it sounds horrible, a typical victim of "modern mastering". Quote
couw Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 (edited) Walter Davis' Davis Cup TOCJ24 is a good example of what I mean, it sounds horrible, a typical victim of "modern mastering". What bothers me most about this one is that it is pushed so loud that there is actual distortion in places. I mean, this is NOT the image of a healthy soundwave... Edited July 15, 2007 by couw Quote
couw Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 (edited) to compare: same tune, BNWorks version. Much healthier Edited July 15, 2007 by couw Quote
Guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 coew, OUCH that was an ugly graph! I can't understand why they master at such high levels today. Really to the limit of the CD medium itself There is generally quite a difference in much higher output levels (and copression) now than 10 years ago. The CD line level is so high anyway and it is soooo much better to just increase the volume a couple of notches instead. And WHY do this to old acoustic BN recordings! /Shaft Regarding the RVG and/or TOCJ question. As times go by I've found that Rudy had his worst period in around 1999 where he really narrowed the stereo spread. I think he tried to get the drums and bass to sound more to the center of the "stage". The soloists were ofter panned hard left in early stereo and he wanted them more in the "middle". Of course the most efficient way of doing this is to make it entirely MONO He went half the way! Just take a listen to Hanks Soul station RVG over earphones. It is practically MONO! In more recent RVGs I think however that Rudy has left this idea and kept the stereo spread wider (and nicer in my book). /Shaft Quote
mikeweil Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 So much for the omnipresence of compression ...... disgusting. Quote
J.A.W. Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 Walter Davis' Davis Cup TOCJ24 is a good example of what I mean, it sounds horrible, a typical victim of "modern mastering". What bothers me most about this one is that it is pushed so loud that there is actual distortion in places. I mean, this is NOT the image of a healthy soundwave... Thanks for posting this John, it shows exactly what I've been trying to say for quite some time now. These "modern mastering" techniques are killing the music in my opinion. Quote
brownie Posted March 7, 2006 Report Posted March 7, 2006 Walter Davis' Davis Cup TOCJ24 is a good example of what I mean, it sounds horrible, a typical victim of "modern mastering". What bothers me most about this one is that it is pushed so loud that there is actual distortion in places. I mean, this is NOT the image of a healthy soundwave... Those graphics hurt my ears Quote
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