Overdubbing, how prevalent is it in jazz?

[Hardbopjazz]

When we listen to a jazz record we tend to think there has been no cut and pasting going on behind the scenes. I am wondering do the artists and producers touch up tracks by cutting and splicing takes together. I am sure it has happened. One that does come to mine is a Lennie Tristano tune. I can't recall the tune, but Tristano's left hand is flying faster than I think anyone can play with the left hand. Makes me wonder if the tape was sped up.

[DatDere]

I think the liner notes from Monk's "Brilliant Corners" album mention that the title track is a cut-and-paste job from multiple takes, because the musicians were unable to get it right in one take. Also, on Lee Morgan's "Sidewinder", the ending part was also punched in because the bass player (Cranshaw?) forgot to play his line, if I remember correct.

These are only two examples, but I guess it did happen sometimes.

Edited March 21, 2006 by DatDere

[Christiern]

Overdubbing is archaic and--I suspect--not ever employed. Bechet's one-man-band was created through heavy overdubbing and each dub caused deterioration in sound. Some splicing took place in the tape era (none before that, of course). A bad intro on an otherwise good take was often re-performed and substituted, for example. With multi-tracks and digital recording, splicing days are long gone, but it we have long been able to re-record parts of a take without affecting the rest of it. I recall numerous times when Laura Nyro, unhappy with her vocal, did it over--sometimes just a fragment of it.

[Johnny E]

Didn't Mingus use edits and overdubs a lot? Sometimes I feel like I can hear it on some of the albums - especially his Candid recordings.

[Guy Berger]

Didn't Mingus use edits and overdubs a lot?

Yup. Going back at least as far as Tijuana Moods.

Guy

[ep1str0phy]

Overdubbing is prevalent in more 'progressive' styles, regardless of older invocations (e.g., piano doubling--which, often times, does smack of the anachronistic). But--Laswell productions use overdubbing all the time, and not all of them are overwrought (I cite Sonny Sharrock's "Guitar" as a wonderful use of studio wizardry in modern jazz/improv). Cats like Mingus and, with Prime Time, Ornette Coleman used/use overdubbing often. Even in more linear, 'straight' post-bop contexts (e.g. Billy Harper's "Somalia," which I'm listening to right now), overdubbing may be used as an emotional intensifier without confounding the fundamentally 'free' or 'improvisatory' character of the music. Hell, there's overdubbing on "A Love Supreme".

[Guest]

I read a Rudy Van Gelder interview recently where he talked a lot about splicing and fixing mistakes in records at the request of the musicians. It surprised me because I really didn't think was the case with those Blue Note records. I guess Rudy should know, though.

[Joe M]

I read a Rudy Van Gelder interview recently where he talked a lot about splicing and fixing mistakes in records at the request of the musicians. It surprised me because I really didn't think was the case with those Blue Note records. I guess Rudy should know, though.

I think Rudy was talking about more recent sessions. I seem to recall him talking about Joe Henderson's "Lush Life" album, and people who said it was good to hear a session like that which was just recorded "live" in the studio, and he said something to the effect of "if you only knew how many edits and overdubs there were on that album!"

[Nate Dorward]

There was certainly some splicing on classic Blue Notes--the obvious instance being Blue Trane (the edits being unpicked on the most recent reissue).

[bertrand]

In the South Bank show on Blue Note records, RVG claims that splicing and overdubbing were required to get Bob Cranshaw's break on the head to 'The Sidewinder' just right.

Bertrand.

[Chuck Nessa]

30 or so years ago when Michael Cuscuna was first exploring the BN vaults he told me Alfred Lion was "scissors happy". Made me feel better since I edited the first date I ever produced in 1966 - Roscoe Mitchell's "Sound".

[John Tapscott]

In the March '06 issue of Jazz Times Gary Giddins has a very interesting column about the perils of record producing. Giddins recounts his experience of producing a mid-70's Sonny Stitt record for Muse. Sonny was stoned and obnoxious for the date, and it was only through herculean tape editing that a finished record finally emerged. What one reviewer praised as a dazzling technical display by Stitt at the end of one track was actually a very clever tape splice which saved the track from ruin.

[Chuck Nessa]

In the March '06 issue of Jazz Times Gary Giddins has a very interesting column about the perils of record producing. Giddins recounts his experience of producing a mid-70's Sonny Stitt record for Muse. Sonny was stoned and obnoxious for the date, and it was only through herculean tape editing that a finished record finally emerged. What one reviewer praised as a dazzling technical display by Stitt at the end of one track was actually a very clever tape splice which saved the track from ruin.

And the list of further Giddens productions are?

[ep1str0phy]

Made me feel better since I edited the first date I ever produced in 1966 - Roscoe Mitchell's "Sound".

--and this, a testament to the idea that tape editing does not necessarily diminish musical quality (which is a latent stigma, no?).

[Sundog]

Also, on Lee Morgan's "Sidewinder", the ending part was also punched in because the bass player (Cranshaw?) forgot to play his line, if I remember correct.

I've noticed that the end of Sidewinder is quite a bit faster than the beginning. That probably explains it.

[Kalo]

Nothing wrong with a little studio trickery in the service of music. A legitimate tool in this day and age if not abused. Just ask Glenn Gould. Or George Clinton.

[brownie]

Didn't Mingus use edits and overdubs a lot?

Yup. Going back at least as far as Tijuana Moods.

Guy

... at least as far back as the Quintet of the Year 1953 concert at Massey Hall!

Mingus went to Rudy Van Gelder's place to overdub his partly inaudible bass part before releasing the music on his Debut label.

[Christiern]

Nothing wrong with a little studio trickery in the service of music. A legitimate tool in this day and age if not abused. Just ask Glenn Gould. Or George Clinton.

Glenn Gould once suggested that all the parts of a session ought to be sold as a kit for the customer to assemble according to his or her fancy.

[king ubu]

30 or so years ago when Michael Cuscuna was first exploring the BN vaults he told me Alfred Lion was "scissors happy". Made me feel better since I edited the first date I ever produced in 1966 - Roscoe Mitchell's "Sound".

Dick Bock anyone? He seems to have applied his scissor (s)kills to the only existing master tapes, too (Jim Hall's "Jazz Guitar"). Oh, and didn't he cut out the Dolphy solos on the few originally released Pacific Jazz sides that included Dolphy? (Can't remember for sure, but the Mosaic booklet certainly has some info!)

[Jim Alfredson]

I'm sure it happens a lot, especially these days since it is so easy to do in the digital realm (and very hard to detect, if not impossibe, if done right).

[Christiern]

The original question concerned itself with overdubbing and how prevalent it is in jazz. It was never common practice. Cutting and splicing (not "pasting") was more common, and both methods relate only to the roughly 3 decades when tape was the medium. The use of multiple tracks (beyond 2-track stereo) opened new possibilities, which were taken advantage of. The advent of digital recording opened the doors to all kinds of manipulation and ways in which to make it seamless.

I am repeating this only because it would appear that this thread has moved away from the question that started it.

Here is a fragment of extensive notes taken by the producer at a Armstrong Columbia session. No overdubbing in this case, but suggested splicing:

Edited March 23, 2006 by Christiern

[Man with the Golden Arm]

didn't 50's Tristano play over enhanced overdubs of some bass stuff for it's lack of speed?

edit : for wasn't that "Tukish Mambo" as well as "Line Up" from 'The New Tristano '56'? - but I also see that some say he "used NO overdubbing".

Edited March 22, 2006 by Man with the Golden Arm

[king ubu]

I am guilty of focussing on splicing rather than overdubbing, too... but Dick Bock also did albums with overdubs - there are some Chet Baker quartet tracks where he later added soloist on top (Giuffre, Perkins, I think) - some of them are released in that form on this disc:

Reading on the BN page it's a bit different: Bock *replaced* Baker's singing by the added soloist, Bill Perkins (and Giuffre on just one cut, I think).

The original album in question is "Pretty/Groovy":

[Rooster_Ties]

FWIW, Greg Osby has overdubbed some extra sax parts on one or two of his more recent releases (a couple of the last two with Jason Moran).

He's the only sax player listed on the date, but there are clearly two or three lines going on at the same time on one or two tunes. Kinda cool, actually, although my brain always says to me "hey, wait, that can't be happening in real time!!" - when ever I hear it.

[ep1str0phy]

FWIW, Greg Osby has overdubbed some extra sax parts on one or two of his more recent releases (a couple of the last two with Jason Moran).

He's the only sax player listed on the date, but there are clearly two or three lines going on at the same time on one or two tunes. Kinda cool, actually, although my brain always says to me "hey, wait, that can't be happening in real time!!" - when ever I hear it.

Reminds me of "Ask the Ages" (the Sonny Sharrock album, which--for whatever reason--I failed to remember a day ago)--there are guitars all over the place... to the extent, I'd assert, that the session just wouldn't work as well without the dubbing--and this, without sounding like the commonplace studio Frankenstein. Laswell's layered texture--accomplished, of course, with Sonny's hand(s)--never sounds artificial or grating... it takes a lot to improve on a Moffett/Jones rhythm section, and the cats did it. That is overdubbing at its best.