The Birth of Bebop Scott Deveaux

[fent99]

The Birth of Bebop - Scott Deveaux

My wife bought me this book ages ago and I'm finally getting round to reading it. Seems great on the browsing I've done so far. Problem is, (for me) there's a lot of the music it discusses that I don't have.

I have a bit of the Hawkins in a 10 cd cheap box but I'm really short of early bebop and have litttle of the swing/big band. The discography doesn't help the compiler in me either being organised by tune title.

Anyone out there help or have any suggestions? Any recommendations of the Minton's private recordings/ Eckstine stuff?

[jazzbo]

Get all the Minton's material you can! High Note has most of this out on cd now. Recommended! The Dizzy/Charlie/Thelonious stuff (parts of it) are also out on a sweet-sounding OJC cd.

The other material. . . well scattered here and there. I'm kicking myself for recommending the "Bebop Spoken Here" box on Proper. I'm not really a Proper fan, and I don't have this myself, but it does have a lot of material that will be appropriate for the reading of that excellent book, collected all nice and cheaply.

[AllenLowe]

Delmark put out the early sessions with Hawk and Dizzy, Max, Pettioford, etc - get it -

Edited April 6, 2006 by AllenLowe

[ghost of miles]

I interviewed DeVeaux back in 1998 and met him when he came to Bloomington to do a book signing. Any idea what he's working on now? At the time he was contemplating doing a sequel of sorts that would deal with the rise of hardbop in the 1950s.

[Fer Urbina]

Can't check now, but several sites (Zweitausendeins?) were selling the Savoy Eckstine 2-CD set at a very low price. I can't think of a better set than the Proper for Hawk's (a main character in DeVeaux's book) 1940-45 stuff. French label EPM put out a 3-CD "Be Bop Story 1944/1945" that must be very OOP, as OOP as a Bebop Revolution RCA published c. 1990 (was mostly Gillespie).

Or you can always wait for set 3 of Allen Lowe's Devilin' Tune

F

PS At least some tracks from the OJC Minton's and Monroe's recordings were pitch-corrected in the Masters of Jazz series (Charlie Christian vol. 7 or 8). If I remember correctly "Swing to Bop" (Topsy) sounds in B natural in the OJC and should actually be Bb.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Fer Urbina

[AllenLowe]

well, you can wait for set 3 - if you live that long -

just to mention - Deveaux's book is quite smart with a lot of very expert analysis of jazz as as a historic discipline - my one caveat would be that its emphasis on Hawk and Howard McGhee, great as they both are, is, in my opinion, a distorting angle that is not really justified by events per the birth and development of bebop - so it becomes a fasinating portrait from their perspective but not one that I would not consider representative of what was going on in the music -

[skeith]

Maybe this is what you are talking about Allen, but I found it frustating to wade through more than half of the book before he even gets to the Bebop Era- seems the emphasis slightly misplaced there.

I was underwhelmed by the book in general.

[Brad]

The Proper Box is a very good intro to bop. I would also get ahold of Dizzy's Savoy box and if you want to go all out the Bird Dial Savoy box. 8 Cds but a must for a good collection.

[AllenLowe]

skieth - I agree - I read a lot of the book but I don't know that I ever actually finished it -

[jazzbo]

Go figure. I enjoyed the book. Read it twice (so far).

[AllenLowe]

well, I actually like a lot of it - his analysis, as I recall, of the problems of jazz historians' metholdogy is quite brilliant and original - it's just that, in the larger picture, using Hawk and McGhee as a focus is problematic -

Edited April 7, 2006 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

I was simultaneously fascinated and frustrated by the book. Fascinated because it show the musical evolution of "pre-bop" in a way that most/all "traditional histories all but ignore. By ignoring that, they paint a picture misrepresents the music as music. Frustrated because bebop in it's earliest stage (or more accurately, it's post-earliest earliest stages) was about a lot more than "just" music. In his attempt (correct, imo) attempt to de-mystify the music, DeVeaux misses out on this.

Whether or not he's/we're botherd by that,and whether or not he/we should be, is not for me to say. I'm content saying that it's a book taht is just another piece of the puxxle. A very valuable piece, to be sure, but ultimately just a piece.

[Chuck Nessa]

Well, I didn't even know of the book and I think I know this material. Convince me!

[jazzbo]

I'd recommend reading the book Chuck, and I bet that you'll have a similar reaction to Jim.

I can see where the Hawk/Maggie focus is problematic. But I enjoyed that aspect and I learned a lot. I also enjoyed the fact that this book was actually well-written and organized.

I'll probably read it again this year.

[Chuck Nessa]

I can supply my own fascination and don't need the frustration. No need to spend money.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Chuck Nessa

[jazzbo]

Well, if you ever change your mind I'd be glad to mail you my copy to read.

[Larry Kart]

Haven't looked at the book in a while, but in addition to the imbalances that Allen and others have mentioned, I recall being particularly disappointed/annoyed by the chapter "Eckstine and Herman," which seemed to me to be full of hot air, not to mention horseshit. For instance, after mentioning the supposed parallels between the two men -- born a year apart, had recently surrounded themselves with younger musicians, were both vocalists and instrumentalists, were "both comfortable with romantic ballads [[but] indelibly associated in the public eye with the blues," etc., DeVeaux says: "But the differences between the two men were as stark as black and white. One might say that the the blues chose Billy Eckstine, but Woody Herman chose the blues. Once Eckstine showed an aptitude for singing the blues, he had no choice but to continue doing so.... Herman sang and played the blues because it intrigued him." All this as a prelude to implying that the "contrast in fortunes" between the Eckstine and Herman bands was a function of "the barriers of racism." First, as DeVeaux himself goes on to say at chapter's end, Eckstine went on "to shatter those barriers on his own" -- after signing with MGM in 1949, he was "finally allowed to sing the heavily promoted 'number one' pop songs of the moment" and became a big pop star. So what happened? Did racism's barriers go away in four or five years, or was it basically that Eckstine the talented/appealing crooner with the the unique seductive voice suited the tastes of a mass audience far more than his marvelous bebop band ever did or ever could have (and more than Herman First Herd did, not to mention Herman's band of Eckstines pop heyday)? Hey, Scott -- maybe other factors than racism were were at work? Again, if Eckstine had no choice but to continue singing the blues in 1944-5 (I don't believe that's true at all BTW), what happened to change that in just a few years? Also, Eckstine was a nonce instrumentalist at best (trumpet and valve trombone), while Herman of course was prominently heard in his band on clarinet and alto sax. And Herman's association with the blues was no longer that big a big deal by the time of the First Herd. Woody's big vocal hit with the First Herd was "Laura." In any case, when DeVeaux writes in this chapter of the Herman First Herd, after quoting Eckstine on how his band could have eaten the First Herd alive ("Shit, Woody Herman, get a load of his things ... All of those things were just a little BIT of the music that we were trying to play...Woody better not have lit anywhere near where my band was. Nowhere."), DeVeaux goes on like this: "Such righteous anger only increases the temptation to cast Woody Herman as the villain of a morality play in black and white: the imitator and exploiter, parlaying a cheaply acquired veneer of bop experimentation into commercial gain, with black innovators once again left without credit or reward. But such a judgment, however emotionally satisfying, would miss the point. Woody Herman was in no way undeserving of the success that came his way.... Nor did the band somehow come by its bebop orientation dishonestly -- not with Gillespie and others openly encouraging the spread of new ideas in all directions.." Etc.

To me this is a rhetorical con game. DeVeaux is staging the racial morality play himself, like the puppeteer at a Punch and Judy show -- at once pretending to deny that it's all about this big fight and then thrusting the battle front and center again. For example, in "Such righteous anger only increases the temptation to cast Woody Herman as the villain of a morality play in black and white," WHOSE "temptation to cast Woody Herman as the villain of a morality play in black and white" is increased? Not Eckstine's -- he's already had his say. So who? DeVeaux himself? Us? I give up. And notice that while DeVeaux ever so graciously says that Herman's band didn't "come by its bebop orientation dishonestly," that was because "Gillespie and others openly encouraging the spread of new ideas in all directions."

To amplify just a bit, IMO while both the Eckstine Band and the Herman First Herd were great bands, the latter's excellence was not primarily second-hand, nor was its popularity in lieu of anyone else's. Using your ears may not solve everything, but it always helps.

[Guest]

I've read and re-read this book several times over.

While no 'stamp collector', my interest in bebop was

sparked by a 2 LP set on Savoy circa 1987 called The

BeBop Boys, a Columbia CD - The BeBop Era, and an

RCA Victor LP - The BeBop Revolution.

Portions of the Savoy set are available on the Indigo

label of the same title.

This book is where I found out about the original take

of Groovin' High on Guild and found that one on an

Indigo CD bearing the same title.

The Proper Boxes - BeBop Spoken Here as well as

Charlie Ventura are a good beginning.

There is another bebop book, whose title escapes

me at the moment, that gives a complete overview

of available CDs, albums to look for, etc. That's

where I found out about The Complete Keynote Collection.

Have amassed quite a collection of music which is enjoyable.

24 bit remastering, Conns, and other minute details are of no

consequence when it comes to just plain enjoying the music

and 'feel' of the era.

Several films of the era add additional enjoyment, such as

Song of the Thin Man, a Jimmy Stewart flick, and an Akira

Kurosawa called Drunken Angel which brings bebop to

Japanese gangster films.

[Simon Weil]

I could never get on with this book (which I've got). I thought it's largely a sensibility issue - his sensibility just feels largely at odds with mine. He seems to take a sort of micro-attitude to social problems (which I agree need dealing with) - (My feeling:) missing the wood for the trees.

On Allen's point about historiography. He's super on that - he's got an article that's been anthologized a couple of times (at least) which may well prove to be a real contribution (i.e lasting). But being good on critiquing the critics ain't the same as being a critic (speaking from experience).

Actually his attitude to the social basis of the music reminds me of the historiographical trend that came up in the 70s, according to which everything historical was reducable to the social and economic. This is an instinctive response, but I do feel the secret of Jazz lies more in the area of Grace.

I like the Proper box (not that I like Proper).

Simon Weil

[Lazaro Vega]

I spoke to Eckstine once and in the course of conversation touched on the subject of Gene Ammons, and happened to mention that Gene Ammons played with Woody Herman ("More Moon"), too. Eckstine's only comment was, "For a minute."

What makes a more interesting comparison (and potential discussion) than racism is the music, say the difference in how the Eckstine and Gillespie bands played Tadd Dameron's "Cool Breeze" (Eckstine's is slower). Or how different the tenor solos of Dexter Gordon and Gene Ammons coming out of Lester Young were with Eckstine compared to the Four Brothers sound coming out of Lester Young in Woody's Second Herd. Maybe that's all been covered by other writers, an exhausted subject: the confluence of Pres and Bird in the sounds of the star soloists of both bands; and Dizzy Gillespie, Tadd Dameron and even Ellington's influence on the ensemble approach. Or the different dynamic of the ensemble figures written by Jerry Valentine for Eckstine's version of "Blowin' the Blues Away" compared to Shorty Rogers scoring on "That's Right," which tried to retain more of a small band feel. The Valentine arrangement sounds close to Dizzy, the evaporating sections a la "Things To Come," and powerful support of Art Blakey, making that Eckstine band bolder than Herman's, which seemed more streamlined until it was time for the tutti's on "Lemon Drop," with license to kill trumpets.

Woody's band was still dealing with Duke back then. When you're an alto player coming to the blues through Johnny Hodges or a clarinettist dealing with the New Orleans pioneers.....what else is there?

You might even bring up the forgotten band of Earl Spencer to further cut the legs out from under the racism dealy-o.

Edited April 15, 2006 by Lazaro Vega

[John L]

I enjoyed the book quite a bit. It is a quite thoughtful attempt to come to grips with Bebop, even if we all might want to take issue with a number of the conjectures and points of emphasis.

I would like to hear more from Jim S. on why he feels that Deveaux didn't treat Bebop as "more than just music." It's been a while since I read it, but I recall a quite serious attempt to put Bebop in historical context.

As far as pre-bop influences, I was a bit surprised at the emphasis put on Coleman Hawkins relative to Lester Young. The former is treated as something like the founder of Bebop, whereas the latter is hardly mentioned. I had always considered Pres' sense of rhythmic and harmonic freedom to be as important a precursor to Bop as Hawkins' harmonic complexity. Hawk may have surrounded himself with younger musicians, but the younger musicians surrounded Pres.

[Larry Kart]

Lazaro -- I think the more appropriate comparison (stylistic and otherwise) is between the Eckstine Band and Herman's First Herd, not the Second Herd. The Eckstine Band and the First Herd were contemporanous. As much as I admire the Eckstine Band (based on its superb airchecks more than its studio recordings), I don't see the First Herd as aesthetically inferior in any way, nor does its music sound second-hand. Sure, arrangers like Ralph Burns and the guys in the band who came up with those head arrangements were feeding off of what was happening on 52nd St. (and off of Ellington in Burns' case especially), but what could be more natural? This wasn't stealing, it was digging what was worth digging, and doing something different, good, and valid with it. Does the existence of Fats Navarro somehow invalidate Sonny Berman? Are they not both strikingly individual players? I mean, stuff crystallizes in various ways, but when it crystallizes, there you have it. For example, there's the Bill Harris-Ralph Burns "Bijou." It probably has something to do with things like Ellington's "Pyramid," and I've always felt that Harris came to some degree from Earl Hines-era Trummy Young, but who for those reasons would throw "Bijou" back in pond?

John L. -- I don't want to speak for Jim S., but as I recall, DeVeaux's "more than just music" perspectives were essentially or entirely economic-racial, as though bop arose from a need/desire on the part of young black musicians to make a music that would be their own on those terms. You see the problem (or one of the many problems with this approach), though -- where is the link between those impulses, real though they may be, and the way bop actually sounds, its musical and emotional "sensibility" if you will? That's one of the reasons why DeVeaux's intense focus on Coleman Hawkins is so odd. Yes, Hawkins' music was full of harmonic complexity, but as you say, "Pres' sense of rhythmic and harmonic freedom [is] as important a precursor to Bop" -- more important, I would say. And in the realm of sensibility, Pres' music in effect gives us a divided and often beleaguered soul -- an image of "the sensitive at the hand of society," as Terry Martin once put it -- that feeds directly into bop's world of semi-fractured obliqueness, while Hawkins' music, for all his openness to certain kinds of experimentation, was in terms of sensibility as invulnerable as a rock and perhaps was even "designed" to be that way.

[ghost of miles]

Very compelling critiques of the book being offered here; I'm hoping to find time to re-read it. I think Jim's "part of the puzzle" nails it pretty well. It's been eight years since I read the book, but my memory is that DeVeaux set out to explore the economic and racial factors behind the rise of bebop because he felt they'd been generally ignored--and I do think there's some validity to the argument that for too long we simply had the "Bird and Diz descended from the clouds and bestowed bop upon us" narrative. From what I've read it was more difficult for black bandleaders to make a successful go of it in the early 1940s, for many a reason (as I recall, DeVeaux posits this as one of the motivations for the popularity of the small-ensemble setting that favored bop). From the vantage point of 2006, and the insightful remarks offered here, it seems possible that DeVeaux may have inadvertently crafted a response somewhat guilty of the very scholarly sins that he's critiquing, but I'd still agree with his thesis that previous histories have neglected important aspects of the story.

Larry, what airchecks of the Eckstine band exist? All I have is a single CD with 11 tracks, AIRMAIL SPECIAL on the Drive Archive label, which purports to be from February and March of 1945. Are there more?

[Larry Kart]

Seems like that's what I have on a Spotlite LP from 1971 -- 12 tracks, though. Jubilee broadcasts recorded Feb./March '45 while the band was playing the Club Plantation in L.A. Five Eckstine vocals, two by Sarah Vaughan, one by guest Lena Horne. Ernie "Bubbles" Whitman is the MC. Excellent sound -- Mark Gardner's notes say that Spotlite acquired tapes of the original broadcasts. As Gardner points it, the superb ensemble work is quite a contrast to the relative raggedness of Dizzy's band(s) to come.

[Larry Kart]

Sorry -- Deluxe, then National (with their ghastly pressings), were the labels the Eckstine Band recorded for, not Musicraft.

Also, reading Ira Gitler's liner notes to the Savoy 2-LP reissue of the Eckstine National material, I see (as I thought) that DeVeaux was skating on thin ice factually when he wrote: "But the differences between the two men [Ecstine and Herman] were as stark as black and white. One might say that the the blues chose Billy Eckstine, but Woody Herman chose the blues. Once Eckstine showed an aptitude for singing the blues, he had no choice but to continue doing so.... Herman sang and played the blues because it intrigued him."

Gitler (who was there) writes: "In the Earl Hines band, where he had made his reputation in the years 1939-43. B sang all kinds of material but blues like 'Jelly, Jelly' and 'Stormy Monday' were his biggest hits. Primarily, however, he was ... a singer of romantic ballads. With Hines he was celebrated for 'Somehow,' 'I'm Falling For You,' and 'Skylark,' among others."

But then facts tend to get bent when you're thinking ideologically.