A problem with center holes

[Daniel A]

I'm just listening to the Andrew Hill twofer 'One for One' (reissued on CD as Pax), and while I like this session a lot (cant figure out why it was years since I listened to it), the vinyl suffers from a problem which has turned up just one time too many on my blue label UA BN pressings: the center hole is not in the center of the LP. Sometimes it affects only one side of the record, sometimes both.

Among Blue Note LPs I've only encountered this problem with blue label United Artists pressings, but so many of those I have are affected that I wonder how common this problem was. It's present on several of my twofers and at least one of the repressings of older titles (it happens to be 'Speak Lika a Child'). The worst case was Jackie McLean's 'Jacknife' where I had to make the hole really oval (several millimeters wider) to make the record play OK.

Does this ever happen to anyone else?

[sidewinder]

Yep - and it can be very annoying !

The problem seemed to start from the late 60s Liberty era onwards - some of those 'Division of Liberty Records' pressings can be particularly prone.

It's a shame BN didn't continue using Plastylite right through to the 70s.

Edited October 1, 2006 by sidewinder

[Daniel A]

Perhaps time to get the self-centering turntable - the Nakamichi TX-1000!

Nakamich TX-1000 turntable.

Manufactured in the beginning of the 80s, price then around $20.000...

[Daniel A]

Well, just as soon as I'd posted the link, the site went down.

Anyway, here's another one: http://www.thevintageknob.org/THEVAULT/DRA...T/DRAGONCT.html

[Teasing the Korean]

Too bad more turntables don't have a removable spindle. You can center the records manually (not always easy but possible) and it's much cheaper.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Too bad more turntables don't have a removable spindle. You can center the records manually (not always easy but possible) and it's much cheaper.

Absolutely right! That's the one downside of my current turntable; I used to be able to do that with its predecessor.

But I've never had that off-centre problem with BNs, whatever their source, as far as I can remember. I had a bad one in GG's "Easy" on Versatile. Several others; some gospel 45s as well. 45s are OK, because they've got a big hole and you can manually centre them. But I think I've managed to replace all the off-centre LPs with CDs now, so it probably isn't an issue for me. I may have a 78 or two like that; not sure.

MG

PS - why is it that this off-centre problem always sounds worse the nearer to the centre of the record the stylus goes?

Edited October 1, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[Teasing the Korean]

PS - why is it that this off-centre problem always sounds worse the nearer to the centre of the record the stylus goes?

Maybe because the pitch fluctuation occurs over an increasingly shorter loop as the tone arm moves in? That's all I can think of.

For those of us with above-average pitch, this problem can be really annoying. There have been times when I've had two copies of an LP and unloaded the cleaner copy because it was off center. I'll take a few pops and clicks over fluctuating pitch any day.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

PS - why is it that this off-centre problem always sounds worse the nearer to the centre of the record the stylus goes?

Maybe because the pitch fluctuation occurs over an increasingly shorter loop as the tone arm moves in? That's all I can think of.

For those of us with above-average pitch, this problem can be really annoying. There have been times when I've had two copies of an LP and unloaded the cleaner copy because it was off center. I'll take a few pops and clicks over fluctuating pitch any day.

The informaton in the groove has to be more compressed nearer to the centre, but the stylus takes exactly the same amount of time to do a revolution. But surely the compression couldn't affect it disproportionately?

I agree with you about preferring rotten sound to fluctuating pitch. When, after a few years, Grant Green's "Easy" was issued in Britain, I didn't hesitate to buy a copy. But the sound is disgusting! I ended up playing the original on side 1 (which was correctly pressed) and the UK version for side 2! (What's even more annoying, my mate had three copies of the original and they were all OK and he wouldn't swap one. Well, I suppose I can't blame him - but why was he so bloody lucky?!)

MG

[(BB)]

My Liberty pressing of The Sidewinder is off center, I always figured it was a marketing decision.

[Teasing the Korean]

The informaton in the groove has to be more compressed nearer to the centre, but the stylus takes exactly the same amount of time to do a revolution. But surely the compression couldn't affect it disproportionately?

Well, the record is still going at the same speed as you get toward the centre, but the circumference of the circle decreases as you go in; So, the two extremes of the pitch fluctuation will occur closer to each other timewise, but the pitches themselves would remain the same. Does that make sense?

Edited October 1, 2006 by Teasing the Korean

[Chas]

Lest any CD-only listeners ( do they even read this forum ? ) think this is only a problem with vinyl , think again : http://www.mscience.com/faq17.html

[Daniel A]

If the hole is, say, 3 millimeters off center it will increasingly affect the sound as the groove radius gets smaller and smaller. At the beginning of a record the radius is about 15 centimeters, while for the last groove it will be more like 5 centimeters. The hole is still 3 millimeters off center; the error increases from 3/150 mm = 2 percent to 3/50 mm = 6 percent. It sounds three times worse!

[Chuck Nessa]

To be accurate, the stamper is mounted off center. The hole is in the right place.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

If the hole is, say, 3 millimeters off center it will increasingly affect the sound as the groove radius gets smaller and smaller. At the beginning of a record the radius is about 15 centimeters, while for the last groove it will be more like 5 centimeters. The hole is still 3 millimeters off center; the error increases from 3/150 mm = 2 percent to 3/50 mm = 6 percent. It sounds three times worse!

Ah! That's it! Brilliant Daniel!

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

To be accurate, the stamper is mounted off center. The hole is in the right place.

Mostly, I think you're right, Chuck. But I've seen some in which the hole really ISN'T in the centre - you can see the edge of the disc going in and out as it turns.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Lest any CD-only listeners ( do they even read this forum ? ) think this is only a problem with vinyl , think again : http://www.mscience.com/faq17.html

Struth! What about a CD player? They don't mention those. Are they all 1X players?

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

To be accurate, the stamper is mounted off center. The hole is in the right place.

Mostly, I think you're right, Chuck. But I've seen some in which the hole really ISN'T in the centre - you can see the edge of the disc going in and out as it turns.

MG

In that instance, the error is in trimming the flash. The "hole" is fixed on the press.

[clifford_thornton]

Right-o on both counts, Chuck.

I have had a few off-center BNs, including some sealed Libertys that would have otherwise been perfect. I believe the only badly off-center (or, in this case, centre) LP I still have is my copy of Keith Tippett's "Frames" on Ogun - definitely a knocked stamper. A little wonky, but liveable.

[Dmitry]

Daniel, here's a simple solution -

Pick out a trashed LP that you don't care about [you will use it as a jig], get a en electric drill with a drill bit that is a perfect fit for the spindle hole, get a flat block of wood, cover it with a paper towel, lay your

off-centered record on the paper towel, lay the trashed LP over your record, line them up perfectly, and drill through the spindle hole of your trashed LP. Make sure to drill at a very high speed with a sharp drill bit. Dust off your now perfectly centered LP, drop a needle on it, open the brew of your choice, and enjoy the tunes. Problem solved.

[Jim R]

I had a bad one in GG's "Easy" on Versatile.

Well, at least you're being honest. The question is, after you'd heard it, why did you want to keep in anyway?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I had a bad one in GG's "Easy" on Versatile.

Well, at least you're being honest. The question is, after you'd heard it, why did you want to keep in anyway?

It's one of my favourite GGs - he plays so beautifully on it. I don't give a damn if he doesn't play Hard Bop; Hard Bop ain't nothin' special; just a style of music. GG was a Soul Jazz player who played some Hard Bop sometimes.

MG

Edited October 2, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[Daniel A]

Haven't gotten a blue label BN in three years. Now, last friday I found Kenny Dorham's "Una Mas" at a good price, but guess what - when I put it on it turned out side one was off-center... I had to widen the hole to make it play back decently.

[Teasing the Korean]

Daniel, here's a simple solution -

Pick out a trashed LP that you don't care about [you will use it as a jig], get a en electric drill with a drill bit that is a perfect fit for the spindle hole, get a flat block of wood, cover it with a paper towel, lay your

off-centered record on the paper towel, lay the trashed LP over your record, line them up perfectly, and drill through the spindle hole of your trashed LP. Make sure to drill at a very high speed with a sharp drill bit. Dust off your now perfectly centered LP, drop a needle on it, open the brew of your choice, and enjoy the tunes. Problem solved.

Actually I've done this with a pocket knife. If you use the label as a reference point, you can figure out where to make the whole bigger, and then line it up properly on your turntable.

Of course, if turntable manufacturers allowed for the removal of the spindle, as they used to, you could easily solve the problem every time.

[Daniel A]

Actually I've done this with a pocket knife.

That was the way I did it this time. As it's the stamper which has been mis-centered the hole is in the "right" place anyway, so used the method you describe, watching the movements of the pickup/position of the label.

[porcy62]

Daniel, here's a simple solution -

Pick out a trashed LP that you don't care about [you will use it as a jig], get a en electric drill with a drill bit that is a perfect fit for the spindle hole, get a flat block of wood, cover it with a paper towel, lay your

off-centered record on the paper towel, lay the trashed LP over your record, line them up perfectly, and drill through the spindle hole of your trashed LP. Make sure to drill at a very high speed with a sharp drill bit. Dust off your now perfectly centered LP, drop a needle on it, open the brew of your choice, and enjoy the tunes. Problem solved.

Actually I've done this with a pocket knife. If you use the label as a reference point, you can figure out where to make the whole bigger, and then line it up properly on your turntable.

Of course, if turntable manufacturers allowed for the removal of the spindle, as they used to, you could easily solve the problem every time.

If you have a serious disc clamper, heavy or fastening, you could widening the hole, center the lp and the problem should be solved...or am I wrong? Unfortunately, most of the TTs haven't serious clamper. About what Cuck said ,

To be accurate, the stamper is mounted off center. The hole is in the right place.

I had a mispressed Lee Morgan's VJ that sounded like a chewingum, after a couple of minutes I started to suffer of seasick.